Scaffolders Study Group
- Thread starter Garry Adams
- Start date
Phil McCree
Well-known member
I really don't think a scaffolding forum is the place for confessions of what you get up to with your yard lads Paul, its not the sort of thing we want to study
No change there then I see, PMSL..!!!
jonnyoneye
Well-known member
Its no problem my end, since I bought the portable X Ray machine from some gypos for the yard lads...we check every weld every day!! Strange tho...I'm getting through 2 yard lads a week!!
.....must save on the cost of having to provide reflective dayglow vests though !
On a more serious note, whilst working in Dubai 15 years ago or so, the company i was working for was using vast quantities of a copy of a Kwikstage type scaffold.
The TCN's using it kept complaining that they had problems with the triangular receivers on the standards snapping off. I thought that they were just being heavy handed and hitting the wedges too hard, but when i finally decided to look closer, i discovered that the receivers on the standards were only welded on the outer edges and not on the inside edges.
Although these standards looked every bit the real Kwikstage item at a quick glance, the finished welds, etc, were certainly not the real article.
I was not there too long, but i can imagine that if there had been a failure of any magnitude, the whole bloody lot would collapse like a pack of cards.
Things seem to have improved a bit out that way over the past few years, but if any of you are ever out there, check the kit because there will always be old stock mixed in somewhere and some might even have found it's way back to the UK i suppose. J
sabretiger
Well-known member
I been on refinary work with lyndons , working grade 5 ecitb ,sorta grandad rights , your right ecitb means diddly for street work , oh i appled for ecitb an coz been on street work that didnt count either:amazed:
daz
Well-known member
I got told by my gaffer today that he has taken on a contract today to maintain a kwikstage job that has been up for the neckend of 20yrs.We have to check the current condition and state the job is in after 20yrs dont suppose it will be pretty,not enough ties,and sways just for starters,and apparently all of the boards are timber,not metal trays,sounnds a bag of laughs.I would think errosion of the gear must show after that length of time.I think that the 1/3 scale training is a good idea,be great entertainment if you were supplied with a few dwarfs to do the practical i think:bigsmile:
Garry Adams
Well-known member
Phi
With regard to calibration and metallurgical testing---The most stringent of Quality Control regimes cannot legislate against the Laws of Probability. The best one can do is to establish a close liaison with Reputable Suppliers maintain a paper trail that tracks back to the smelting and manufacturing stage and as you have eluded to mark the tube with a visible as well as the batch finger print applied at the smelting stage.
End of Project surplus to requirements sales and buy back agreements inevitably Brake the Track-able history of the materials and therefore can be a fails economy. The bottom line to mitigate against metal fatigue and associated stress fractures is to establish a strict regime of Quality assurance---as for a past the sale by date ?---one might as well ask how long is a piece of string.
Even if you could measure and identify the degree of the degradation of the node point, what measures could you put in to offset the deficate ?---perhaps one could reduce the centers, ect ?, but, this would increase the Self Weight of the Scaffold and be counter productive.
With regard to calibration and metallurgical testing---The most stringent of Quality Control regimes cannot legislate against the Laws of Probability. The best one can do is to establish a close liaison with Reputable Suppliers maintain a paper trail that tracks back to the smelting and manufacturing stage and as you have eluded to mark the tube with a visible as well as the batch finger print applied at the smelting stage.
End of Project surplus to requirements sales and buy back agreements inevitably Brake the Track-able history of the materials and therefore can be a fails economy. The bottom line to mitigate against metal fatigue and associated stress fractures is to establish a strict regime of Quality assurance---as for a past the sale by date ?---one might as well ask how long is a piece of string.
Even if you could measure and identify the degree of the degradation of the node point, what measures could you put in to offset the deficate ?---perhaps one could reduce the centers, ect ?, but, this would increase the Self Weight of the Scaffold and be counter productive.
Phil McCree
Well-known member
Garry,
A very fine answer indeed Sir. How about batch numbering for random destructive testing, is that a possibility? In Singapore and Malaysia you had to provide manufacture certificates before mobilizing any scaffolding material to a project, the same also applies in here offshore in Nigeria.
Cheers,
Phil.
A very fine answer indeed Sir. How about batch numbering for random destructive testing, is that a possibility? In Singapore and Malaysia you had to provide manufacture certificates before mobilizing any scaffolding material to a project, the same also applies in here offshore in Nigeria.
Cheers,
Phil.
Garry Adams
Well-known member
Phil
Random Bach testing to the point of destruction as a matter of course, yes---however, this provision only deals new Product monitoring, perhaps their should be a sale by date alloted and included in the Tractable Test Certification and Documentation---however, this raised the question of re-cycling of product and thus increasing the carbon foot print of the Orginisation replacing out of date product Stock.
Eventually the material used to manufacture Scaffold Products may have to be replaced with a more mailable and ductile material.
Garry...
---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------
Frank
The meeting with Expro was to discuss Access and Egress options for a subsea Stack, the Stack is almost complete, the Stack will be placed aboard a brand new Vessel which was Built in Davie's Ship Yard in Canada, the Vessel will have a custom built hoisting Derick on the deck, the Stack will be raised inside the Derick and lowered through the Vessels Moon Pool ( hole in the boat ) and lowered to the Wellhead on the sea floor ( Angola ). This is a new Deep Sea Wellhead Intervention System and the first of six with more in on order---
The options are Scaffolds, Cable Suspended Work Platforms and Rope Access.
I have been tasked with selecting one of the above and or a combination of all. I am giving serious consideration to a combination of Cable Suspended Work Platforms and Rope Access. Although I shall be dealing with on the job Pre-Task analysis and Training in Aberdeen and Glasgow.
Random Bach testing to the point of destruction as a matter of course, yes---however, this provision only deals new Product monitoring, perhaps their should be a sale by date alloted and included in the Tractable Test Certification and Documentation---however, this raised the question of re-cycling of product and thus increasing the carbon foot print of the Orginisation replacing out of date product Stock.
Eventually the material used to manufacture Scaffold Products may have to be replaced with a more mailable and ductile material.
Garry...
---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------
Frank
The meeting with Expro was to discuss Access and Egress options for a subsea Stack, the Stack is almost complete, the Stack will be placed aboard a brand new Vessel which was Built in Davie's Ship Yard in Canada, the Vessel will have a custom built hoisting Derick on the deck, the Stack will be raised inside the Derick and lowered through the Vessels Moon Pool ( hole in the boat ) and lowered to the Wellhead on the sea floor ( Angola ). This is a new Deep Sea Wellhead Intervention System and the first of six with more in on order---
The options are Scaffolds, Cable Suspended Work Platforms and Rope Access.
I have been tasked with selecting one of the above and or a combination of all. I am giving serious consideration to a combination of Cable Suspended Work Platforms and Rope Access. Although I shall be dealing with on the job Pre-Task analysis and Training in Aberdeen and Glasgow.
jonnyoneye
Well-known member
With new kit, there should obviously be certain standards employed for the supply of the raw materials, manufacturing of components, etc, etc,.
Once however it becomes used and abused -which in the case of abuse, can be a very short time indeed - then the traceability of the quality of materials, the standards to which the components were manufactured, etc, becomes worthless.
The only true method of quality assurance is for components to be properly checked regularly, not only by the guys in the yard, but by all who handle the kit and also by Supervisors and other management who inspect and see the stuff on a regular basis.
Faults will still be missed, but in the event of the failure of one tube or one fitting in a scaffold, will not, in my experience, lead to a catastrophic faliure of the whloe scaffold - if it is constructed in the proper manner. Quality assurance down the line, from design back to the yard.
This of course does not apply to beams and the like, but then these should be inspected closely by a (very) competent person before they are issued from the yard for a job and in my opinion, should carry a seperate tag showing that they have been inspected before issue to a job, similar to the tagging of ladders carried out by some companies these days.
This quality assurance issue is extremely important and my point about supervisors and management taking an active part is crutial in making the whole QA thing work. This in turn leads us back to a point that i made in the Study Group threads, regarding the Scaffolding Inspectors qualifications and how easy it was for virtually anyone to pass the tests.
If you have 'Managers' with little or no scaffolding experience, going out and passing such tests, then inspecting scaffolding and scaffolding materials for damage, etc, then you will undoubtable get important and possibly crucial bits of kit passed as 'fit-for-use' by someone who might be a wonderful Civil Engineer, but who does not know the significance of a bent or creased tube as a cantilever brace or similar - and trust me i've come across them !
Vigilance lads, vigilance - and report anything that's damaged to one of the Supers who know what they are talking about and insist that it's disposed of of or repaired properly !
J
Once however it becomes used and abused -which in the case of abuse, can be a very short time indeed - then the traceability of the quality of materials, the standards to which the components were manufactured, etc, becomes worthless.
The only true method of quality assurance is for components to be properly checked regularly, not only by the guys in the yard, but by all who handle the kit and also by Supervisors and other management who inspect and see the stuff on a regular basis.
Faults will still be missed, but in the event of the failure of one tube or one fitting in a scaffold, will not, in my experience, lead to a catastrophic faliure of the whloe scaffold - if it is constructed in the proper manner. Quality assurance down the line, from design back to the yard.
This of course does not apply to beams and the like, but then these should be inspected closely by a (very) competent person before they are issued from the yard for a job and in my opinion, should carry a seperate tag showing that they have been inspected before issue to a job, similar to the tagging of ladders carried out by some companies these days.
This quality assurance issue is extremely important and my point about supervisors and management taking an active part is crutial in making the whole QA thing work. This in turn leads us back to a point that i made in the Study Group threads, regarding the Scaffolding Inspectors qualifications and how easy it was for virtually anyone to pass the tests.
If you have 'Managers' with little or no scaffolding experience, going out and passing such tests, then inspecting scaffolding and scaffolding materials for damage, etc, then you will undoubtable get important and possibly crucial bits of kit passed as 'fit-for-use' by someone who might be a wonderful Civil Engineer, but who does not know the significance of a bent or creased tube as a cantilever brace or similar - and trust me i've come across them !
Vigilance lads, vigilance - and report anything that's damaged to one of the Supers who know what they are talking about and insist that it's disposed of of or repaired properly !
J
Garry Adams
Well-known member
jonnyoneye
I concur, due diligence to visual inspections by ALL concerned should be considered a prudent proactive policy, backed up by a stringent reporting regime and an embargo put upon Un/Serviceable components.
I perticularly liked the idea of Ladder/Unit Beams being given a more rigorous and recording Inspection.
I concur, due diligence to visual inspections by ALL concerned should be considered a prudent proactive policy, backed up by a stringent reporting regime and an embargo put upon Un/Serviceable components.
I perticularly liked the idea of Ladder/Unit Beams being given a more rigorous and recording Inspection.
2
21s
Guest
tell me this garry if i can call upon a bit of your knowledge me ole maate ,,, if a set of 21 ft ladder beams hung off an eight ft box , caught twice and knee brace , how many 2 mtre lifts can i erect for a bog standard working lift withoun splicing legs or whatever ??????????:idea:
4safetytraining
Member
dwarfs
dwarfs not in stock at this time for the 1/3 scale scaffolding, but we are working on it.:smile1:
dwarfs not in stock at this time for the 1/3 scale scaffolding, but we are working on it.:smile1:
Garry Adams
Well-known member
Frank
Without a visual look at the job---Im working in the dark. however, if you calculate the self weight of the Scaffold Materials that will be punched off of the Beams and cross referance with the bending moment of the Beam and yield factors of the fittings supporting the Beams to ledgers you should be able to calculate a Bill of Quantities and from that how many lifts. I dont know if that helps--- Can any of the Form Members expand on Franks Question.
Without a visual look at the job---Im working in the dark. however, if you calculate the self weight of the Scaffold Materials that will be punched off of the Beams and cross referance with the bending moment of the Beam and yield factors of the fittings supporting the Beams to ledgers you should be able to calculate a Bill of Quantities and from that how many lifts. I dont know if that helps--- Can any of the Form Members expand on Franks Question.
jonnyoneye
Well-known member
Constant visual inspection should be going on at all times anyway.
Even Bottom Hands should get involved, they are after all, usually the guys that are handling the gear before it is passed up to the erectors. If it gets as far as the erectors and it is not fit enough to be used, that is a failure in the system.
Years ago, i well remember incidents when kit was passed up that was not fit for use and very obviously so. It was usually hurled back at the Bottom Hand faster than it came up - they soon learnt what was useable and what was not !
On a slightly more humorous note, but along the same vein, i once turned up on a job in Dubai to find the biggest Pakistani scaffolder, Ejaz Kahn, sitting astride a labourer on the ground and pounding him full in the face.
I pulled up, ran over and stopped it all and asked Ejaz what he thought that he was up to. He replied, "Well Mr John, this guy was working on the bottom passing fittings up to me. I asked for single couplers, but he passed me up double couplers. Now he knows that he made a mistake and he won't get it wrong anymore" - Happy days !
4safetytraining
Member
Training
Could any one give me an outline of training done in the UK, (covers, time, OJT) I am trying get the U.S. to see that there is a bigger need for plan and scaffolding should be a trade in it's self. Not some thing all trades do as part of there job. If you are a plumber can you build your own scaffold in the UK?:nuts:
Could any one give me an outline of training done in the UK, (covers, time, OJT) I am trying get the U.S. to see that there is a bigger need for plan and scaffolding should be a trade in it's self. Not some thing all trades do as part of there job. If you are a plumber can you build your own scaffold in the UK?:nuts:
From the Construction Industry Record Card Scheme site:
A trainee scaffolder should not be carrying out any scaffolding works unless directly supervised by a qualified scaffolder. During the period of time that the operative holds the trainee card they should attend the CISRS Part 1 Scaffolders course. This is a 2 week off site course. The course includes
• H&S Awareness • SG4 Harness Training • Interpretation of simple drawings • Independent Scaffolds • Putlog scaffolds • Birdcage scaffold • Static Tower • Alteration to scaffolds • 50 question Test paper
The operative then must return to industry for a minimum of 6 months to apply (under supervision) the skills he has attained. He must then attend CISRS Part 2 Scaffolders Course. This again is a 2 week off site course carried out by an approved provider.
The course includes
• SG4 Harness training • Scaffolds with prefabricated beams • Protective fans • Pavement Gantry • 2.5 Tonne Loading Bay • Roof Saddle • Splay Scaffold • Roof Edge Protection • Alterations to scaffolds • 50 question test paper
The operative must return to industry for a minimum of 6 months. In this time he/she must collate work based evidence in order to complete S/NVQ Level 2 in Access and Rigging Operations. The operative returns to the centre for an VQ portfolio assessment, he/she then takes the H&S safety test and if successful will be issued with a CISRS Scaffolders Card (*The word Basic has been dropped since June 2006). This scaffolder can now be deemed competent to erect, dismantle or alter the range of works as outlined above. This covers around 80% of the range of scaffolding works carried out in construction. An operative must hold a CISRS (Basic) Scaffolders card for a period of 12 months (this is being extended to 3 years) prior to attending a CISRS 2 week off site Advanced Course at an approved training provider
So the absolute minimum length of time to be a qualified scaffolder is 1 year, but most people train for a year before going on the part 1 course so generally it takes about 3 years, advanced scaffs are usually at least 5.
Other Trades can do a 1 day PASMA course which allows them to erect and dismantle Aluminium Access Towers.
Hope that helps mate
A trainee scaffolder should not be carrying out any scaffolding works unless directly supervised by a qualified scaffolder. During the period of time that the operative holds the trainee card they should attend the CISRS Part 1 Scaffolders course. This is a 2 week off site course. The course includes
• H&S Awareness • SG4 Harness Training • Interpretation of simple drawings • Independent Scaffolds • Putlog scaffolds • Birdcage scaffold • Static Tower • Alteration to scaffolds • 50 question Test paper
The operative then must return to industry for a minimum of 6 months to apply (under supervision) the skills he has attained. He must then attend CISRS Part 2 Scaffolders Course. This again is a 2 week off site course carried out by an approved provider.
The course includes
• SG4 Harness training • Scaffolds with prefabricated beams • Protective fans • Pavement Gantry • 2.5 Tonne Loading Bay • Roof Saddle • Splay Scaffold • Roof Edge Protection • Alterations to scaffolds • 50 question test paper
The operative must return to industry for a minimum of 6 months. In this time he/she must collate work based evidence in order to complete S/NVQ Level 2 in Access and Rigging Operations. The operative returns to the centre for an VQ portfolio assessment, he/she then takes the H&S safety test and if successful will be issued with a CISRS Scaffolders Card (*The word Basic has been dropped since June 2006). This scaffolder can now be deemed competent to erect, dismantle or alter the range of works as outlined above. This covers around 80% of the range of scaffolding works carried out in construction. An operative must hold a CISRS (Basic) Scaffolders card for a period of 12 months (this is being extended to 3 years) prior to attending a CISRS 2 week off site Advanced Course at an approved training provider
So the absolute minimum length of time to be a qualified scaffolder is 1 year, but most people train for a year before going on the part 1 course so generally it takes about 3 years, advanced scaffs are usually at least 5.
Other Trades can do a 1 day PASMA course which allows them to erect and dismantle Aluminium Access Towers.
Hope that helps mate
Last edited:
4safetytraining
Member
Thanks
I will be using this information in the training this week and at meetings on scaffolding. Training in the U.S. has not made this far.:amazed:
I will be using this information in the training this week and at meetings on scaffolding. Training in the U.S. has not made this far.:amazed:
Garry Adams
Well-known member
4safetytraining
As you have identified there is room for improvement in the provision of Scaffold Training in North America. Further to Stefs Post---if you require more information may I suggest that you contact Paddy Carr ( Document Controller and Course Work Co-coordinator ) at the Scaffolders Study Group. The SSG Group Members may be able to assist you in your endeavors to Create and Develop Training Course Programs.
Garry...
As you have identified there is room for improvement in the provision of Scaffold Training in North America. Further to Stefs Post---if you require more information may I suggest that you contact Paddy Carr ( Document Controller and Course Work Co-coordinator ) at the Scaffolders Study Group. The SSG Group Members may be able to assist you in your endeavors to Create and Develop Training Course Programs.
Garry...
CelticWarrior
Well-known member
Hello Study group,
I have experience in the management/contracting end of things so if there's anything I can help just ask,
Regards All
I have experience in the management/contracting end of things so if there's anything I can help just ask,
Regards All
paddy carr
Moderator
Hi Celtic warrior
welcome m8, if you make your way to the study group, you can join,register or volunteer your services.
Paddy
welcome m8, if you make your way to the study group, you can join,register or volunteer your services.
Paddy