ECITB V CISRS status

frenchy said:
I think the problem is towards the end the ECITB card was abused by certain people in the same way the CISRS card is being abused now. I have held the ECITB card for 20 odd years and am also paying myself for the so called training of the CISRS. I have completed the part one and as I have said before out of the 9 people on the course 4 should not have gone through as 2 had to copy my test paper as requested by the instrustor and 2 could not build the required 2 jobs, tower and independent, but still walked away with a pass and a card. I have got my part 2 booked for January 2011 at the cost of another £1400 with 1 day assessment and another 2 weeks off work. I hope this is not just another turn up and pass course as I will feel cheated.
Cheers
Frenchy
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Just for the record Frenchy, what exactly did you learn on this very important 2 week training course, don't be shy if you picked up some nougat of information that proved useful please share it with the group or even if you picked up any tips on how to stay awake as the instructor regaled some tall tales of how wonderful he was on the spanners back in the day and how he kept the north sea going single handed.:suspicious:
 
Dave Abe said:
After reading a lot of threads on here regarding ECITB and CISRS I think it is time to compare these two cards status.

We also need to keep in mind that the NASC or CISRS has not took the ECITB card away, the WAH regs state you must have training and that is a good point to start with.

ECITB Card
How was the card obtained?

Card obtained by completing an application form, stating what grade you wanted issuing.

Did you require experience?

Yes

How did you have to show experience?

Supervisor / Foreman, Manager or owner confirmed who the applicant was and how long in the industry and which grade was being applied for. Must be stamped by company.
If I am wrong with this please do correct me as it's been a while since I have seen one of these forms..

Could you fail?

Impossible nothing to fail and we all know the story about the 8 year old girl (if not read back through the threads / posts)

Another few facts on this card:

Yes may have experience now but I wonder how many never prior to being issued the card? (I am aware of some and no doubt others are)

Most Petro/Chemical sites work to the Blue book and companies working on these sites would have to keep an even ratio of workforce and applying for a ECITB card was cheaper option if they where only guaranteed short term work (an argument for the union for allowing it I suppose, should have insisted the workforce received correct training).

Lads who had Part 2 CITB cards watching ECITB lads being issued an equal grade card as them or in some cases higher without completing training and not even been in the game as long as them. Once issued the card in some cases got a better hourly rate and a better pay packet.
Again in some cases when the bladdering match came along CITB gone and ECITB kept due to having an higher grade and the site required an even ratio.

CITB or the modern name CISRS To any the same questions above please see the following link http://www.cisrs.org.uk/CISRS_General_

Pass / Fail

To comply with the Caps 609 above, the centres must work to the CISRS Management scheme Caps 609 A.

This states a pass / fail rate for the theory test of 76%.
On the practical side, the instructor should assess and mark him for each activity and then make an assessment.
I can only answer for the centre which I am involved in and we use an assessment form which is sent to the course sponsor / employer. The marking system is as follows:
A = Excellent
B = Good
C = Average
D = Poor
F = Fail
LTC = Letter to Company

Big question how many have fail, again answering for the centre which I am involved approximately 20.
If the candidate fails the theory then a re-sit test can be done 2 weeks after completing the course, if candidate fails re-sit test then the full course must be taken again..
Fail on practical, full course taken again with a letter to the company, stating what the candidate must do prior to returning.

If a candidate scrapes through then it may be a case that the instructor will write to the company stating that the candidate must wait 12 months prior to returning for a part 2.

Apprentices are different as they do a Foundation, Part 1A, Part 1B, Part 2A, Part 2B and a final Diploma Week. If an apprentice fails or is not ready to move on to the next level then we move the apprentice back a group until the apprentice is ready. We also issue a letter to the company stating what is required back at site in order for the apprentice to improve.

ASRE I see this getting mentioned for the ECITB scaffolder. If anyone took this route then I am sure it was for Advance scaffolder status only and you had to have your Basic card for so many years (please do correct if I am wrong), so how can we do an ASRE for a ECITB scaffolder into card scheme which requires you to obtain training to claim your status.

Lets waiver the fact where the money is coming from and if the government is giving free funding for CISRS courses why not take advantage.

I do not see any ECITB people speaking on the forum stating what they are doing to resolve this matter for their card holders??

Yet I have read on here training centres, CISRS and NASC are expected to resolve this issue and foot the bill?
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So what was the assessed route there was **** all training there, if your preaching the whar 2005 then there tickets should be worthless.
 
Frenchy may I ask where you done your Part 1 mate?
 
eirth dave and as i have said not opposed to training lets just have it at the right level that we might learn something think that would be better for the industry we are in.
 
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I'm not the brightest(obviously) but that sentiment seems to be the common thread from all having to go back and start from scratch Frenchy. Fair enough if you could say you got at least something from it, but to learn nothing is criminal.
 
Hi frenchy as i work at erith as an instructor could you name and shame the instructor who took you for your part one. I feel these instructors are not only letting you down but letting industry down.
 
Thanks Frenchy I done my Part 2 at Erith 1987?

I agree with regrads to th right level, as I stated earlier our centre been open nearly 3 years now and we depend on candidates feedback.. Reading the feedback sheets from the candidates I feel we are moving in the right direction as a centre.

Sorry to hear you paid for this yourself totally criminal in this day and age...
 
no mate not getting in to that as have more courses to do with you so i can achieve the same status of competencey i have held in scaffolding for the last fifteen years as an advanced scaffolder
 
Instructor may I ask your name if you do not want to put on the forum PM or email direct please dabaraham@simian-risk.com

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 PM ----------

Frenchy I agree with what you are stating here and I do not think naming him in here would serve any purpose. However I think you need to inform Erith of your concerns. If you do not feel comfortable putting your name to this then do not state a name.
 
Hi Dave,
I think it is obvious now that Erith training centre is aware of frenchies concerns, the question is will they do anything about it, How far up their chain of comand is this deemed to be aceptable,?
as I know not all the instructors at Erith follow these practices. I guess its a lottery as to weather you get a good one or bad one.
As for teaching a candate that has been doing the job for 20 years something new on a part one, this might be a bit of a chalenge for anyone
And naming and shaming them..it would require proof or otherwise its just going to open the flood gate for people to be sent to a kangaroo court just because they didn't like the instructor. remember no one is going to please all the people all the time.
However this downgrading of our profession by turning the course into a two week toss off MUST be stopped.
A signed letter by the course candidates as a group reporting these practices sent to the company manager by recoreded delivery would be hard for any company to ignor. Also the candidates all get a questionaire to complete at the end of each course and if they continue to tick good to all the boxes and not write their comments on the feedback sheet then this will keep happening if these so called instructors are allowed to continue this practice
 
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hi dave spoke to a welsh lad today he had a ecitb ticket and done the asre in wales paid
for by the welsh council think he said 1700 yes we did have some lads come from other departments that may have got less wages but that was down to there supervisor to sought out a beter rate for them if the truths known the other scaffolders would of been on price on a boiler ect theres always arguments over money plentys been done to resolve this ticket issue too we could go on alnight dave i gana leave it to the laywers now as they get paid more and i be honnest iam fed up of going over old ground.admin must be pulling hes hair out the threads are all over the place.
 
On a lighter note I was working near ITV studios the other day and seen Harry Hill and told him of the ongoing debate on the forum and he was very confused because he said that he liked CISRS scaffolders AND also liked ECITB scaffolders but there is only one way to find out which is best....FIIIIGHTTTTT!!!!!!
 
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