Reading design drawings.

I can't help but smile reading the posts on here.

Alan you are right mate, thats the bottom line. Hatter: love it.

As for scaffolders reading drawings, we have a job running at the moment where we have designed a gantry and temp roof, before we started another engineer designed a lifting gantry which was supposed to be attached to the scaffold we are designing...(they would have continued the design had they not taken 3 weeks to do the first little bit) I went to site and was presented with the drawing done by the other engineer, I couldn't read it, it was diabolical: at 1:150 scale for starters which is tiny, set-out terribly on the page, no notes, no dims, stuff on top of each other.. just useless.

It doesn't matter how many drawings you've read in the past, you weren't gona read that! I feel genuinely sorry for scaff's who have to try and work with crap drawings like that and then, when something is in the wrong place or clashes (like Kevin says above) you have to strike and re-erect or pay for the engineer to change it!

I would be embarrassed if that had been my drawing, I think it is our job to make the drawing as easy as possible to understand.. thats just basics.. right?
 
That's bang on BMB, that's what we pay you for and therefore becomes bare minimum that the scaffs can understand it. If a scaff gets an unrealistic request for a job we would tell them we would need to come and see the job so an engineer should be no different, droppers where pipes are are just not on.
 
spot on BMB.
I was a contracts manager in my last job and thought i could read most drawings with ease having been brought up reading the designs of two (who i believe were very good design engineers).
however we were very busy and the engineer had to sub the design out to another design company (very reputable) our engineer gave me a ring and asked me to come and collect the drawing he was now printing off, he said nothing, pretented to be on the phone and pointed at the drawing to collect.
i took the drawing back to my office to get my head round prior to giving it to the scaffs etc. after 2 hours of scrathing my head, i had to swallow my pride and go to our engineer and ask him to decipher it for me.
i didnt even get through the door and he was pisssing himself laughing saying i wondered how long it would take you. this drawing was so complicated to read/understand, small, poor notes, little clouds everwhere,different colours and a bridge that wasnt a bridge.


KEEP IT SIMPLE WE'RE SCAFFS
 
You need to strive to improve yourselves as engineers have strove to better their lot

Sorry Alan, the engineers are the one's charging top dollar for their work, the onus is on them to make the layman understand it and to know the positions of obstacles. If it wasn't we would just do it ourselves.
 
jakdan said:
KEEP IT SIMPLE WE'RE SCAFFS
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This i will have to disagree on Dan...
We're not 'just Scaffs'.

We do a job that VERY VERY FEW others could do, no matter how educated they are...

We are the oil that keeps the Construction machine rolling along, that keeps hundreds of other trades and millions of other people in work and helps build this country into the 'Great' power it is today.

No matter how many white skinned-black wannabes, undercutting foreigners and murdering Muslims out there, its the guys in the mud and dirt that keep this country going.

a.k.a: Us and other working class grafters. :)
 
Jakdan, I wouldn't have paid for it mate... if you can't read it, you can't use it! Its worthless. If you put a scaffold up that didn't get access to were the client asked for it (not that you would! lol) you'd ave re-built it.. same with drawings.

We don't sub anything now, we *generally* have the capacity to service our main clients with a 7-10 day turn around.. the main reason why I don't do it is EXACTLY what you described above.. I don't know anyone who could do it how I wanted it doing and I'm not going to start training the competition!!

B
 
I said keep it simple, J

Not we're "just scaffs".

i'm not taking anything from us, but to me scaffold is simple, it goes up in squares and thats how simple it should be kept, not disguised with educated bullsh1t.

PS bmb,we didnt pay for it.
 
I have no problem sticking my head above the parapets Hatter, thats why my name is shown.
It is what it is fella, I am not looking to upset others just giving a different perspective.
I have no problem with guy turning a spanner but I have no problem with guys doing the drawings either. 2 sides to every story.
Alan

---------- Post added at 04:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 AM ----------
aom said:
You need to strive to improve yourselves as engineers have strove to better their lot

Sorry Alan, the engineers are the one's charging top dollar for their work, the onus is on them to make the layman understand it and to know the positions of obstacles. If it wasn't we would just do it ourselves.
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Thanks for the response AOM, you are right the Engineer is the one charging top dollar for their work and their work should be good enough is there a reason the same rule should not apply to the scaffolder?

I have been in this game for a couple of weeks now so have seen a scaff or two in my time in general not such a bad bunch of guys, having said that I have not met one who could not do everybody elses job better than they can.

Engineering a scaffold is not as easy as drawing it and Engineers need your input to make their designs viable. Very easy to be the critic no so easy to be the author.
As previousley stated I am aware there are poor Engineers out there BUT even the good ones get limited time in which to visit a site survey it and get the design on paper.
As an example if an Engineer whilst visiting a site for five minutes has missed a pipe 30m above ground that is in the way of a standard, how is it the scaffolder building the scaffold below it for a week has not spotted it before he cant go any further.

Read my previous post in full you will see I am not defending poor or lazy engineering nor will I defend poor or lazy scaffolding.
If you guys want to know more about design you need to put the effort in, ask your provider to explaine the design to you ask them why they have drawn what they have, if you think there is a better way ask why they have not done what you think you would have.

In house, Scaffolding should not be an adversarial industry. I have worked with many top Engineers and Scaffolders alike I learnt my trade by asking questions of both.
regards
Alan
 
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aom said:
You need to strive to improve yourselves as engineers have strove to better their lot

Sorry Alan, the engineers are the one's charging top dollar for their work, the onus is on them to make the layman understand it and to know the positions of obstacles. If it wasn't we would just do it ourselves.
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Don't devalue the scaffolders own position or responsibility in this, he is not a Layman and scaffold designs ARE NOT produced for the layman they are produced for trained tradesmen, Scaffolders.
regards Alan
 
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Good post Allan. Without collaboration at first stages of design, there must always be grey areas. Especially on complicated structures. Some engineers do not like to be quieried as some scaffolders dont question design. Not a great combination.
 
Alan, read through the thread, there are a lot of scaff's complaining about some drawings. I actually agree with what you say and really never had an issue with designers or drawings. A mate of mine did send me a drawing of a temporary roof he has to build just to give me a look as it's one of the few structures I have never built. I have to be honest and say I had no idea how to make head nor tail of it and I hope my mate doesn't get upset by me saying this but I reckoned a child could have made a tidier job. It would be easy to point at my total lack of experience on these structures but an experienced scaff with lots of experience behind him and reading drawings as second nature should be able to pick up and understand any drawing of any structure. I'm sorry to argue a point with a drawing I can never show you but you would really need to see this to believe it.

My other point was, if you need a week to produce the correct drawing tell them it will take a week, don't spit out a drawing in 24 hours and then blame the client for drain cover or over head pipe blocking the route. We could debate back and forth till we are blue in the face but I just like guy's to stick their hand up and take responsibility for their own actions now and again instead of blaming the guy doing the erecting who probably did notice the overhead pipe but took it for granted the engineer did as well.

You are also quite correct in saying we are tradesmen, trained and ticketed. I know you are also aware if it's not in a book we can't build it without design and if it's not on the drawing we can't build it either. The scaffolders input is being marginalised by the powers that be and that is why the designers are coming to the fore, so maybe the job is not what it was and there is a new customer base to service one that doesn't have 25 years experience of overcoming adversity but more spoon fed with all the new regulations we are faced with.

Just an opinion Alan.
 
Hi AOM
I have read the thread and fully respect your opinion, I can only restate my original point there are without doubt poor engineers as well as poor scaffolders. Finding the good ones is the trick.
The industry is unfortunatley reactive as opposed to proactive. I am in full agreement that if it takes a week to prep a design say so I am just no so sure how many of the engineers clients would be prepared to wait.
Again you are correct the nanny state has created the problems we now have to deal with and we all have our hands tied. I have a year or two under my belt also, none the less I find this industry harder to work in than when I started.
Stay well fella
regards
Alan
 
Aom if its the drawings iam thinking of then i gotta make you right the where hard work ,but you do get kinda used to working them out :cry:
 
I wouldn't have mentioned it Phil and I'm sorry for not being in direct contact since I got them. I knew you would be well acquaint but to be honest I would need a lot longer, I would get it eventually like most things but there would have been much scratching of heads before kicking that off.

Alan,

Fair enough, there is definitely good and bad everywhere. I think it was the crack at improving my lot that aroused my defence mechanism.;)

Have a good weekend.
 
Hi AOM
nobody here taking cracks at you only putting an alternative point of view.
Nothing wrong with a good defence mechanism either :)
regards
Alan
 
theres many varied and valid points amongst the various threads on this debate but from my view i think yes scaffolders should be able to read drawings and at some stage of their training it should be formally introduced not just expected that you should have picked it up.
personally i have never had formal training with it and have been lucky enough to be able to pick it up,and if i didn't understand something would ask what it was or why so as to learn, but its not your charge hands/ lead spanners job to teach you but to interpret and pass on to the guys under him where he wants the tube to allow the job to be erected as quickly and saftley as possible ( on time means on budget)
one of the problems i personally think is the speed that allows you to go from labour to advanced just to have the right qualification and hopefully paypacket, but at the end of the day you just cannot learn everything you need in this short time, AND SO ARE NANNIED THROUGHOUT YOUR WHOLE SCAFFOLD CAREER with the need for drawings and schedules/recommendations-rather than use the experiance you should have gained throughout your time on the spanners, although with the ticket you hold comes the responsibility to be able to erect everything asked of you - i think the timescale from pt1 -pt2 should be min of 5 years and within the course should include drawing assesment and understanding (something i was told at birthcem had been dropped due to cost) and the pt2- Adv min of 10 years, every 3 yrs should be a 1 day refresher to bring you up to date with changes like tg20 etc.
back to the desighn side of things, i would have to agree that there are some terrible desighners out there- exactly the same way in which there are some terrible scaffolders, but with the shortage of them and the extra requirements TG20 have brought into the industry its hardly surprising that the some drawings are rushed and poor ( but you try expalining to your contractor "sorry mate but cant do it for a month cos the drawing wont be ready" and he has to stand down the whole site and trades just cos of it...)
lets hope that the reissue of TG20:13 will hold a re-write to a lot of the desighn issues , as i cant see the NASC holding itself up against the main contractors that they are trying to sighn up to their recommendations ,once the main contractors fully begin to understand the finacial implications of lost time and additional works required just to stay complient with their recommendations they will be opting out of the NASC quicker than they sighned up to it.
the guy i work for at the mo has a crackin system, as soon as he's aware a dwg is required he takes a load of photos, which he sends to his desighner aloner with a copy of the main site drawing - he then produces a vary detailed sketch/dwg which also goes - a quick call to the desighner to check that his ideas are correct and the desighner emails a confirmation to commence while he may take a few days to prouce the drawing proper, any probs we may get during the erecting can be corrected b4 the main drwg arrives or with a small amendment - as a A ticket he can sighn it off saves loads of time and trouble, and i got to admit that his drwg/sketech looks exactly like the desighners but with out all the tech loading details that the other guys dont really need to know
 
Agreed Hotspanner, and I may now have changed my opinion slightly now that I have found a good designer that can produce reasonably priced clear designs within a good time scale. (Thanks for the tip BMB) Still couldn't work out Philiosmaximus's drawing though if my life depended on it.:embarrest:


I would now agree that the secret to success is find a guy who can produce a drawing you can understand and give him as much information as you can but the crucial thing is when you are asked to build a complex structure make sure the client knows a drawing must be produced and the boy's just turning up in the morning is never going to happen.
 
20 years ago you would have been hard pushed to find a Street scaffolder who was fully
au-fait with drawings , not their fault as most jumped in a lorry threw up the job and went on the p iss . So the problem has really only come about since SG20 , all scaffolds must be designed has come about. I never was taught to read drawings at the CITB , i was taught by the older scaffolders on the very rare occasion we had drawing to work to.
If they expect the lads to be able to understand drawings then they need to cover it on the courses in detail and get some sort of a standard the the designers need to work to , i have seen drawings that Stephen Hawkings could not make head nor tail of , and instead of just throwing gear in to get around problems they should actually get some scaffolding experience under their belt .

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------
aom said:
Agreed Hotspanner, and I may now have changed my opinion slightly now that I have found a good designer that can produce reasonably priced clear designs within a good time scale. (Thanks for the tip BMB) Still couldn't work out Philiosmaximus's drawing though if my life depended on it.:embarrest:


I would now agree that the secret to success is find a guy who can produce a drawing you can understand and give him as much information as you can but the crucial thing is when you are asked to build a complex structure make sure the client knows a drawing must be produced and the boy's just turning up in the morning is never going to happen.
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:laugh::laugh:: The Guy that does my drawings was actually the owner of a fairly big scaffold company and i always tell him how i see the job and he makes it work from there , so i do have an unfair advantage as i more or less designed it and he calculated it and made it work . But he does have doctors writing and a face that only a mother could love
 
In the early 70’s -80’s SGB used to run in-house courses for senior Scaffolders and teach them to read drawings. They also used to train Designers/Engineers I am sure Palmers did the same thing.
I remember as a trainee Designer knocking up and printing stacks of drawings that were used both in-house and at Bircham Newton where Scaffolders were trained. GB also ran courses for their Managers and Estimators to ensure they also knew how to read a drawing and understood what the scaff needed to do.
As an Engineer at SGB I used to butt heads with the MD of the day David Flood who referred to us as “the necessary evil”. Little did he know how necessary (or how evil).
Without wishing to and as a result of their training regime SGB became a training service to all the other scaffold companies both with its Engineers, Managers Estimators and its Scaffolders. No sooner were people trained they left to chase the shilling. As a result of this trend SGB stopped it’s training of Engineers and consequently the adequate training of everyone else.
 
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