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Tugeladiver

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Good Day All

I am new to the scaffolding industry as such. I have managed a large blasting and painting company and have been in the manufacturing industry for many years running businesses. Now back in the Middle East building a Services and Manufacturing company as Commercial Manager.

I will probably bore a lot of members with some dumb questions from time to time.
 
Welcome To The Forum Buddy, Ask Any Question You Like, Someone On The Forum Will Be To Answer It.
 
First dumb question

Like most countries, we have HSE up the **se here in Qatar. Specifications relating to the sale of scaffolding materials is tight, very tight. On the face of it, no problem, we supply and install tube and coupler structures from ground based scaff to cantilever structures 200 meters in the air.

When it comes to petrochemical plants the specifications relating to equipment are particularly tight. The scaffolding is then installed without the use of a torque wrench. In theory the scaffolding is not installed to specification.

Question
How important is it to torque the bolts to 50nm?
Is it necessary to torque them to 50nm in order to comply with EN standards?
 
Torque? Whats That? Three Turns After Hand Tight Thats It Buddy, (Goddam Fitting Has To Come Off Again)
 
How do you regulate every single fitting that goes into a job Do you have to have someone coming along behind the fixer with a torque wrench to check them ? If thats the case then why have the scaffolders erecting it in the first place and not just the fella thats checking them.
Any scaffolder worth his salt knows when a fitting is tight and should not need to have his work checked.

Regards EN standards i have never heard of any that insist fittings are set to a specific torque , but iam certain that there probably is one as there is one for everything else in our game
 
Yeah right Phillio, cant be regulated,50nm is the standard,thought it was 1 and a 1/2 squeeks:laugh:
 
I was getting a bo llocking years ago from a boss about my fittings being to tight and all the other lads where moaning about striking my jobs , he asked me how tight i do them ,
i said

" Until the Bas tards scream " :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
Tugeladiver said:
First dumb question

Like most countries, we have HSE up the **se here in Qatar. Specifications relating to the sale of scaffolding materials is tight, very tight. On the face of it, no problem, we supply and install tube and coupler structures from ground based scaff to cantilever structures 200 meters in the air.

When it comes to petrochemical plants the specifications relating to equipment are particularly tight. The scaffolding is then installed without the use of a torque wrench. In theory the scaffolding is not installed to specification.

Question
How important is it to torque the bolts to 50nm?
Is it necessary to torque them to 50nm in order to comply with EN standards?
Click to expand...

Your first dumb question is not so dumb matey, it's EN 74 that will control the quality of the fittings we use and I reckon it would tell you to seek manufacturers advice on how tight they should be. The problem with the 50nm thing is it would deliver different bolt loads to different fittings depending on age, quality and serviced state. I have done a tiny bit of research in to the subject, and don't mind telling you, it's a minefield.
 
Many thanks for your advice. It does not make a lot of sense to me either. I have yet to see any data on yield stresses for any of the couplers we import except for some manufactured in Europe.

Torquing the bolts to 50 N m seems to be the requirement in order to comply with the various standards. The refineries here seem to be anal about the material specificaitons however there is little control over the tightening of the bolts by our Nepalese working in temperatures up to 48 c.

Wedge clamp systems like Lahyer and Marcegaglias SM8 seem to make more sense in this environment.

But then again I am just a dumb beginner trying to figure this all out.
 
Just wondering Tug , you can if you really want to check how tight a fitting is , but how would you check to see that a wedge in a system scaffold has been set properly :wondering:
 
Tugeladiver said:
Many thanks for your advice. It does not make a lot of sense to me either. I have yet to see any data on yield stresses for any of the couplers we import except for some manufactured in Europe.

Torquing the bolts to 50 N m seems to be the requirement in order to comply with the various standards. The refineries here seem to be anal about the material specificaitons however there is little control over the tightening of the bolts by our Nepalese working in temperatures up to 48 c.

Wedge clamp systems like Lahyer and Marcegaglias SM8 seem to make more sense in this environment.

But then again I am just a dumb beginner trying to figure this all out.
Click to expand...

It is quite difficult to get pre-qualified for refinery work in Qatar. As for the fittings every scaffolder would need to be issued with a torque wrench similar to those used in tyre repair workshops. I have not come across any one testing the fittings as like elsewhere in the world it is assumed that competent scaffolders tighten the fittings correctly.
Cuplok, Kwikstage and Layher is available although the majority of work in the oil and gas industry is tube and fitting.
Not come across Marcegaglias SM8 but assume you are working for them as they are keen to break into the oil and gas world.
They need to have a CISRS advanced card holder as that is often a project requirement.
 
Tugeladiver said:
Many thanks for your advice. It does not make a lot of sense to me either. I have yet to see any data on yield stresses for any of the couplers we import except for some manufactured in Europe.

Torquing the bolts to 50 N m seems to be the requirement in order to comply with the various standards. The refineries here seem to be anal about the material specificaitons however there is little control over the tightening of the bolts by our Nepalese working in temperatures up to 48 c.

Wedge clamp systems like Lahyer and Marcegaglias SM8 seem to make more sense in this environment.

But then again I am just a dumb beginner trying to figure this all out.
Click to expand...

My unregulated research was to prove compliance not to throw tube away to let us use system. We do use impact wrench's but there are some concerns over them as well due to over tightening or torquing. Not many agree with me as usual, but I believe the torque wrench's we use are fit for purpose as they are in the mid range of the levels required. To hit 50nm regularly and accurately you need a tool capable of doing 100nm minimum. As I said, finding the correct bolt load for a fitting is crucial.
 
This is great info. Much appreciated.

I am sure they will not throw tube out. It is still the most popular system on most industrial sites. The wedge clamp, multilevel systems need to be supplemented by using tube and couplers any way. Depending on application, from 10% and up to 20% of big projects.

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------

BS 1139-2.1 / EN 74 document I have states

"Couplers secured with a wedge shall be tightened by striking the wedge with a 500 g hammer, until there is a jarring blow".

This is one of the old specificaitons the newer specs do not mention wedge clamps.

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------

Thanks for the input. I do work for Marcegaglia and there are several systems that we sell and use. Tube and fitting is probably the biggest in volume of sales. For contracting we use both tube and fitting and the SM8 wedge clamp system.

Being new to the game (but not new to business) I prefer SM8 for shutdowns and complex work when we are working 200 meters off the ground building cantilever systems at the top of the towers in Doha. The system is much quicker.

On lump sum projects this is good news. As mentioned in another thread, we still use tube and fitting to supplement the system.

We have design systems for both tube and fitting and SM8 that provide us with detailed drawings that are compatible with BIM systems and can provide all the necessary calculation reports. The calculation reports assume that bolts are tightened to 50 N m. I am not too sure our Nepalese can do this in 48 degrees at the end of a long day.

The problem is getting the refineries to think outside the box.
 
Yes, the requirement on some plants is for 4mm tube as part of a tube and fitting system. Assuming you are using tube and fitting this appropriate and one of the ways of ensuring safe structures (together with fitting manufacturing specs). Rules are different on many plants with regards to multilevel system scaffolding.

One of our engineers can sit on site and churn out scaffold designs with calculation reports at a push of a button during shutdowns. Same time Engineered systems

The SM8 system has been designed as a scaffolding / shoring system. Tube thicknesses can vary from 3.2 and as high as required, depending on the load.
 
Tugeladiver said:
This is great info. Much appreciated.

I am sure they will not throw tube out. It is still the most popular system on most industrial sites. The wedge clamp, multilevel systems need to be supplemented by using tube and couplers any way. Depending on application, from 10% and up to 20% of big projects.

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------

BS 1139-2.1 / EN 74 document I have states

"Couplers secured with a wedge shall be tightened by striking the wedge with a 500 g hammer, until there is a jarring blow".

This is one of the old specificaitons the newer specs do not mention wedge clamps.

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------

Thanks for the input. I do work for Marcegaglia and there are several systems that we sell and use. Tube and fitting is probably the biggest in volume of sales. For contracting we use both tube and fitting and the SM8 wedge clamp system.

Being new to the game (but not new to business) I prefer SM8 for shutdowns and complex work when we are working 200 meters off the ground building cantilever systems at the top of the towers in Doha. The system is much quicker.

On lump sum projects this is good news. As mentioned in another thread, we still use tube and fitting to supplement the system.

We have design systems for both tube and fitting and SM8 that provide us with detailed drawings that are compatible with BIM systems and can provide all the necessary calculation reports. The calculation reports assume that bolts are tightened to 50 N m. I am not too sure our Nepalese can do this in 48 degrees at the end of a long day.

The problem is getting the refineries to think outside the box.
Click to expand...

I agree, and I am not entirely sure anyone in the UK can hit 50nm regularly and accurately with a swing over spanner be it at the start of the day or the end. I have measured as accurately as I am able, the torque ratings on some of our jobs, the results I am getting for the swing over spanner range from around 75-85 allowing for a break out force of plus or minus 5%, they tell me it can be greater than that but that is what I am working to at the moment. The impact wrench users are hitting around the 55-65nm at the moment which is greater but still closer to the mark. We also had the same advice for putting together system scaffold a few years back, I think it was 3 blows with the toffee hammer to set cup lok correctly, which to be honest is almost as laughable as the 2 turns and a squeak most of us use to torque a fitting.

To be honest, I don't know what the answer is, but if you find it, drop me a line.
 
All you are going to achieve by torqing you nuts is 1.annoy the scaffs how take it down.2.destroy the fitting...
hope you go the money to replace them when they are no longer usable
 
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