How long should you be a trainee

As it sez in the title - how long should you be a trainee, everyones differnt & learns at their own pace.
years ago you were a trainee till your boss thought you were worth spending money on & investing in you without wasting his time/money.the trainees tckt was open ended with no time scale, so it could be on average 5 years b4 getting put through...with time came the experiance,then the ticket,then the higher pay.but now thats all gone to fcuk with the self financing zero to hero in 18 month & the new rules which i've just found out about which are designed to push guys through in a short time at a huge cost.
I've normally found it takes a good 5-7 years on the job to be a fairly accomplished if not fully competant scaff where as a boss i could start earning decent money off their work, the first few years you may brake even if your lucky so it can be quite an investment over time.
now ive got a guy who may not be the brightest in the world or tbh the most reliable but he's been on with me for about 4 years in which time i've where i could train him up or put him in a crew where he could learn whilst being a labourer - so i got his trainees card,which is now just about to expire . So contacted citb to be told that even though as an advanced & smsts along with a mass of other quals & ticket along wiv nearly 30 years in the game - i could give a toolbox talk but not the cots -so yesterday i sent him to erith for his cots(£130) so i could renew his trainees tckt for another 18 months with a view to putting him through his pt1 in the spring.
Bad call from citb 2day to say they wouldnt renew his trainees tckt & he'd have to go back to a labourers card ( resticted work & limited site skills) the reason why? -he hadnt started his formal training within the 18months on his card - i tried to reason that not only had i done this b4 but surely you would have assumed their own new cots couse must be deemed as formal training wouldnt you-apparently not,so now i gotta send him off for his pt1 asap , as without it he cant really even get off the ground which tbh is just downrite stupid in our game.not only dont i think he's ready for his tckt but the thought of spending another 2k on him b4 being able to recoup it through his working ability makes me wonder why this system is so fcuked up.....i wouldnt sack him or replace him as he's been far to loyal for that. But what a joke that our so called governing body & training system cant see that all they're doing is filling their quotas by putting inexperiance kids on the scaffold to the detrement of our industry, but the financial benefit of the training centres .
I truely beleave this tckt system needs to be reviewed b4 in their rush to push novices into a well paid career their blantent disreguard for experiance over qualifications & their constant money for tckt making scams will make this allready dangerous trade allmost too difficult to attract new blood.

I've got a temp labourers card as I can't renew trainee card and I'm still getting part 2 wages...... So yep very strange the ticket system usually goes against us but I've had the opposite

How old is he? You might be able to get something back if he's young enough

I'd look at the big picture he's not earning you mega £££ now But for the future I'd certainly put him through his part 1 now because he's loyal which is unheard off these days so he's not gonna do one once he's got it if you know what I mean he's done 4 years for you and from the sounds of things he will be there for another 4 years

Dont get me wrong bobby i got no probs with spending and putting him through -its being dictated to by the citb & their make it up as they go along senario.
your lucky getting the wages u do on the labourers card but the problem ive got is the type of work we do - notonly do u need to know what your doing . But av to av the ticket that sez so as well.ive met many good experianced guys without them but its a new world m8 & getting harder - without the right qual you cant get up & do the job without some jobsworth demanding to see ur tckt b4 saying, get him down he shouldnt be up there with a labourers card lol

Most of the younger ones seem to get by on just getting a cscs card. From the little I know, it's still just a touchscreen to get it and no clear plan of where to go next hence no real time limit.

If I were you, I would consider the apprentice route. The funding is in danger of changing, but as things stand, it does dull the pain of training costs and will go some way to reduce your risk of investing in someone who might never reach your expectations.

It's also advantageous for a young man to have a clear training plan.

Wind down the firm and do house fronts, you never be happier!!

A lot share your frustration but you did hit the nail on the head with Competent. Just because you have a scaffolders card or advanced scaffolders card does not necessarily make you competent. Unfortunately blue carded scaffolders will be offered large amounts of money regardless of how long they have been scaffolding and how competent they are. The best way round the system at the moment is to apply for a labourers cad 1st until you are sure that the guy is worth investing in then you gain a trainee card and put him on his part 1 within eighteen months. Without being harsh, if they do not show any future worth within say three months, have shot of them.

I agree with what your saying, some guys will never make a scaff all the time theyve got a hole in the arsse lol but once again the trouble is even with a training & develpment plan in place -you now cant start a guy on site without the cots card & a scaff labours tckt (all costing money b4 your new employee even knows if this games for him)..
With reguards to the apprentice route while its true under 24s can be fully funded trying to get a under 24 with the resolve to stay the term of the apprentiship b4 wasting my time & money & jacking is difficult.
& theres normally funding for pt 2s if youve already got ur pt1 which tbh i thinks the wrong way around they should finance the pt1s so if they then decide to jack with in the 1st few months its not coming outta our pockets lol

Answer to original thread. Maybe twenty years. With regards to costs. Forget funding how much etc. take your own control. For example. Hello Mr SP 'can I have a job as a labourer, I heard your paying x per day' Mr SP replies ' you can x per minus twenty quid per day for the 1st week as a trial run' if your good enough I'll put you on x thereafter. Also as I am such a good bloke to work for I will pay for you to do a one day COTS course'. Continue this ethos for remainder of training duration. Everyone wins.

Thats fair enough i spose Reu but i doubt whether the bloke go for it lol.

Under the law your surposed to provide your workers with both the correct ppe & kowledge to do the job that theyre beeing paid to do - not charge em for the priviledge of working for you.
the previous comment about just getting the crscs touchscreen test may be ok for normal site labourers, but the new demand by the CITB & NASC for a scaffold labourer is the minimum of the new COTS (construction opperatives training scheme) which came into force back in july & without this 1 day course qualification you cant get a scaff labourers or trainees card issued by CSCS - maybe if your a small 1man band doing tea & biscuit jobs or just street work u may get away with it on the short term, or at least till ur pulled by an over zelous hse inspector passing you, or god forbid the worker has or causes an accident- then i'm affraid youd both be looking at a massive fine (min5k) or possible jail time.
unfortunitly on all the big jobs & site work nearly all the agent have the SMSTS & know what theirs & your legal obligations are. & thats why i gotta put him through...maybe time to try & take on an apprentice as theres full funding for them if under 24 - ( just really hard trying to find 1 that doesnt mind being bullied & tortured....hm i ment to say trained & nurtured lol

Exactly, legally you have to train your guys so build training costs into your wage structure (that's legal) and don't see it as an extra over. For specific training requirements that may come up every know and again depending on what type of work you do, cost it into the job. You might think that the apprenticeship scheme will save you money but they are away for 12 weeks in the two years and the drop rates on the 1st year are high.

Fecking money grabbing wotsits

Seems like a whole heap of headache sp

Much easier when I started.

When my lad recently did his Cot's course in Brum there were 2 lads in his class doing their labourers cards. they both held valid CSCS cards that were valid for another 12 month. Because it was over 6 months since they sat the test the lecturer told them they would have to re sit the CSCS touch screen before they could get their labourers cards even though they had 12 months left to run. One big money making scam all this!

Of course it is! It needs the whole industry to take a stand and tell the robbing c@nts that we're not going to stand for it anymore.
We are the backbone of this industry, not these faceless swines that dream up ever more ridiculous courses for operatives to go on.

Rumour has it that they're going to introduce a 2 day arse wiping course to ensure that site operatives don't get friction burn whilst on the John on 'Considerate Constructor' sites.

Terrible scam. Same as NHS. My poor old pa had to have a bypass operation and was carried out by someone who had his full training (£60k) shocking, I wanted someone who hadn't had any training but was pretty good.

Reu said:

Terrible scam. Same as NHS. My poor old pa had to have a bypass operation and was carried out by someone who had his full training (£60k) shocking, I wanted someone who hadn't had any training but was pretty good.

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I love sarcasm

Reu said:

Terrible scam. Same as NHS. My poor old pa had to have a bypass operation and was carried out by someone who had his full training (£60k) shocking, I wanted someone who hadn't had any training but was pretty good.

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I know what you mean, open heart surgery is on a par with punting boards.
Pr1ck

Of course it's not on a par but neither is the cost of the training.

Are you a trainer Reu?

No, not a trainer. Although I do see the benefit training brings to the business and the legal protection. Also, I have never met a scaffolder who said they never learnt anything on the courses the've been on.

You might want to look into the allowable employer tax breaks that are available regarding training staff. Its an area we started getting involved with because we were getting so annoyed about the way HMRC treat workers differently - self-employed/ sole traders can offset training cost against tax but PAYE (if paying it themselves) cannot.

However, employers can claim the tax relief/ use training costs as an expense. You can also look into "salary sacrifice schemes", which can be beneficial to both employer and staff.

Ask your accountant for some advice on the best way to approach staff training.