cads "not so smart scaff" (1 Viewer)

dangeruss

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This post is for the lads that use CADS really, its expensive and times are hard so I've just sent this e-mail to them to try and get some resolution.

Dear CADS
I was using my program last week and I added a protection fan to the length of scaffold I had estimated. When I did the tg20 check it failed as design input was needed. In tg20 there are 3 protection fans allowed whereby you don't need to get a specific design. Is the tg 20 checker accurate and current with legislation at this time?

Are you any closer to being able to estimate Chimney stacks or temporary roofs using the program ? are you any closer to being able to estimate multiple birdcages/towers /loading towers etc of differing dimensions under the same item number e.g. Item 1 = 1 birdcage x 4m long x 4m wide x 4 m high 1 birdcage 6m long x 3m wide x 2m high and so on ?
I only ask as I have e-mailed already and have had no response, and have enclosed my last e-mail.
Could somebody please get back to me. I have posted this e-mail on the scaffolders forum with 2000 members so a speedy response/resolution wouldn't harm your cause.


That should chivvy them along, if you go to the protection fan thread you will get my point.I'm not slagging them off merely asking them for some straight answers and making my fellow forum friends aware of what I have found
 
Not got that far with it yet , but note the comments , let us know the outcome
 
Not got that far with it yet , but note the comments , let us know the outcome
Fair play to CADS they have got back to me in record time,i I post their response below.

Please can you export then email me the estimate which gave the attached
TG20 report so that I can investigate the issue and respond.

If you are not sure how to do this, refer to the section in your SMART
Scaffolder manual on Transferring between Computers and Using the
Import/Export Feature.



As regards your previous email, we discussed this matter on the
telephone first and my understanding was that your email was simply to
provide a written backup to our conversation. I was waiting to have some
specific news regarding your feedback before getting back to you.



Regards,

Richard

I expect the forum hastned their response ,but they did get back to me.
 
least you got a response , so is it workin how you want it now ha
 
is case that good then dangeruss or is it what you have used for years like
 
Fair play to CADS they have got back to me in record time,i I post their response below.

Please can you export then email me the estimate which gave the attached
TG20 report so that I can investigate the issue and respond.

If you are not sure how to do this, refer to the section in your SMART
Scaffolder manual on Transferring between Computers and Using the
Import/Export Feature.



As regards your previous email, we discussed this matter on the
telephone first and my understanding was that your email was simply to
provide a written backup to our conversation. I was waiting to have some
specific news regarding your feedback before getting back to you.



Regards,

Richard

I expect the forum hastned their response ,but they did get back to me.
Lads I would gratefuly recieve your expert comments on the below statement from the CADS technical help team.

Hi



Protection fans are covered by TG20 in Section 5 which is devoted to Special Scaffolds, and which starts “Structural calculations should be made for all special scaffolds”.

The descriptions of the various types of fan provided in TG20 define how best to build them and which considerations should be used in their design, but it does not mean that scaffolds with fans are exempt from design.



As regards your other comments: We are not working on improving the chimney stack or temporary roof scaffold options at the moment, but we are working on other improvements such as passing a greater number of independent scaffolds using the design calculations from TG20. We will certainly address chimney stacks and temporary roofs on the futures, but they are not in the forthcoming release.



As regards your previous suggestion back in May about entering multiple birdcage scaffolds as a scaffold single item, this was received very positively and the team are currently considering the best way to do this. Once the forthcoming SMART Scaffolder V2.1 is out of the way, I expect to receive more details on how they propose to support this and I will be in touch with you to get your reaction to their proposals.



Do not hesitate to contact us again if you have any further query or wish to provide any further suggestions or feedback on the product.



Regards,

Richard



Richard Pearce

CADS Technical Support.


Are the team at CADS right ? do we need design imput ?In another thread on protection fans we had come to the conclusion that we didn't need a design for certain fans ,is this correct we need some clarity.
 
I use CADs all the time, and i find it the best of the softwares around. Another thing that i cant get my head around in the package is when doing the chimney scaffolds? It usually states that there is a tower coming from the ground, and never off an external perimeter!

Unless im being a complete mong and not looked further into it.....
 
I use CADs all the time, and i find it the best of the softwares around. Another thing that i cant get my head around in the package is when doing the chimney scaffolds? It usually states that there is a tower coming from the ground, and never off an external perimeter!

Unless im being a complete mong and not looked further into it.....
Its not like CASE though Swinny where you put in your dims for the chimney scaffold and it bangs out a price at the end, with the cads you have to work it all out your self. Your right about "coming from the ground" I think the people at CADS haven't realised the complexity of various types of scaffold, understandable ,they're not scaffolders.The more I get used to it the better I'm finding it ,but CASE is better, it does more from the off.
 
Dangeruss,

I had hoped you would have had an answer from some of the designers on here by know, but I still think it's a cover your erse scenario from cads, the first hint of something remotely interesting they tell you to get design advice, you get advice which will inevitably be it doesn't need a design and everybody is happy. The fancy tg20 report does not look so good with amber warning signs on it though. Maybe another button to tell the damn thing the designer gave it the ok, or is that a step too far? I will need to get the tg20 guide back out to see if their talking out their backside or not but I definitely took the examples to mean we could build these jobs without designer input if we followed their configuration exactly.
 
Dangeruss,

I had hoped you would have had an answer from some of the designers on here by know, but I still think it's a cover your erse scenario from cads, the first hint of something remotely interesting they tell you to get design advice, you get advice which will inevitably be it doesn't need a design and everybody is happy. The fancy tg20 report does not look so good with amber warning signs on it though. Maybe another button to tell the damn thing the designer gave it the ok, or is that a step too far? I will need to get the tg20 guide back out to see if their talking out their backside or not but I definitely took the examples to mean we could build these jobs without designer input if we followed their configuration exactly.
Im getting a bit fed up with it AOM, nobody seems to want to commit and everbodys an expert.
 
Its nice to see the forum getting some sort of recognition.:bigsmile:
 
Russ,

I'm afraid the guy from CADS is right about the protection fan - all the scaffolds covered in Section 5 of TG20:08 require a design and the details in there are just good practice. Maybe it would be better if CADS could highlight the section of your scaffold which needs the design rather than just a blanket "design required" message (Im not that familar with CADS so not really sure how it works).

The only silver lining in this case is that you only need to design the section of the scaffold which deviates from being a 'basic scaffold'. So, if you do have a basic independent complying with TG20:08 in every way but it has a protection fan on one elevation, you just need a design for that (which would cover the boards, transoms, ledgers and standards supporting the fan) rather than the whole thing.

That said, it was always the same in BS 5973, nothing has changed in TG20. I can hear people saying "yeah bo**ocks, we always used to do 'em without design" but I'm afraid it is true. All the special scaffolds in BS5973 should have been designed. If you want to check it out then look on page 19 clause 8.5 (in the 1993 edition). The reason why you never needed a design is becasue the code was not enforced as much as it is now.

I hope that helps!

Ben
 
Hi dangeruss and all,

My name’s Terry, and I’m one of the designers of the CADS SMART Scaffolder software. I expect that you can understand why I haven’t rushed into a public debate about our software (and I hope that Richard from our support team has been helpful in answering your questions directly), but we do work very hard on it, and I certainly want you all to like it, so I hope that this reply is helpful...

Our aim is to help anybody using our software to be safely covered by TG20, because it’s very easy to misinterpret it and unintentionally not comply.

The cantilever fans discussed on this thread are a really good example: even though they’re included in TG20, they’re described in the ‘Special Scaffolds’ section, which means that they need to be designed. It’s really easy to read the advice in this section of TG20, which is for scaffold designers, and assume that they don’t need to be designed. We’ve been very fortunate because we’ve been able to work with members of the TG20 Technical Committee, who have really helped to make sure that the guidance from the software is correct.

Another aspect that we’re aiming to help with is that TG20 is changing – there is a new set of guidance (‘TG20 Appendix H’) on tying scaffolds to open structures. We have a new version of SMART Scaffolder (coming out today!) that includes this new guidance, so again we’re trying to help you to be compliant as simply as possible. Without using software, you need to keep up-to-date with the new guidance and work it out for yourself, which takes a lot of time!

One more feature of the new version of the software is an option to automatically design many types of independent scaffolding that fail the TG20 check, using the design calculations in TG20 Volume 2. This means that a lot of scaffolds that fail TG20 can be automatically passed using the checks in the new version of SMART Scaffolder. You can print out a calculation that justifies the scaffold, which you can send to a designer to be checked, if you wish.

So, we’re aiming to help you to understand the (fairly complicated) TG20 guidance, avoid accidentally failing to comply, and automatically design some scaffolds that aren’t TG20 ‘Basic Scaffolds’ and save seeking engineering advice.

I hope that this is a helpful reply, but if you’d like to know more, please let me know.

Terry
 
Hi dangeruss and all,

My name’s Terry, and I’m one of the designers of the CADS SMART Scaffolder software. I expect that you can understand why I haven’t rushed into a public debate about our software (and I hope that Richard from our support team has been helpful in answering your questions directly), but we do work very hard on it, and I certainly want you all to like it, so I hope that this reply is helpful...

Our aim is to help anybody using our software to be safely covered by TG20, because it’s very easy to misinterpret it and unintentionally not comply.

The cantilever fans discussed on this thread are a really good example: even though they’re included in TG20, they’re described in the ‘Special Scaffolds’ section, which means that they need to be designed. It’s really easy to read the advice in this section of TG20, which is for scaffold designers, and assume that they don’t need to be designed. We’ve been very fortunate because we’ve been able to work with members of the TG20 Technical Committee, who have really helped to make sure that the guidance from the software is correct.

Another aspect that we’re aiming to help with is that TG20 is changing – there is a new set of guidance (‘TG20 Appendix H’) on tying scaffolds to open structures. We have a new version of SMART Scaffolder (coming out today!) that includes this new guidance, so again we’re trying to help you to be compliant as simply as possible. Without using software, you need to keep up-to-date with the new guidance and work it out for yourself, which takes a lot of time!

One more feature of the new version of the software is an option to automatically design many types of independent scaffolding that fail the TG20 check, using the design calculations in TG20 Volume 2. This means that a lot of scaffolds that fail TG20 can be automatically passed using the checks in the new version of SMART Scaffolder. You can print out a calculation that justifies the scaffold, which you can send to a designer to be checked, if you wish.

So, we’re aiming to help you to understand the (fairly complicated) TG20 guidance, avoid accidentally failing to comply, and automatically design some scaffolds that aren’t TG20 ‘Basic Scaffolds’ and save seeking engineering advice.

I hope that this is a helpful reply, but if you’d like to know more, please let me know.

Terry
Terry
Its great to see that you take our views/comments seriously.I would like to thank you as it would have been easy to keep your head down and dodge the flak but you have ,listened,discussed and then actioned which is commendable in this day and age.I have stated that in my opinion CASE is a better program at the moment, if you could address the multiple items at different sizes issue you would be level pegging, put a link to the Porn hub and you would be a clear winner ! keep up the good works and keep watching the forum ,you may not like the view we give but its always an honest one.
 
I will attempt to give a designer's answer to the problem here.

TG20 is quite clear in what defines a scaffold that doesn't require a design. Fans, cantilevers, bridges, loading towers, temporary roofs all require a design. Which is why smart scaffolder will not approve a scaffold that includes any of the above.

There are different types of fans and each type will impose differing loads at different positions of the scaffold. Fans effectively act like a wind sail and therefore can exert tremendous loads at tie positions. They also need to resist potential impacts loads. TG20 talks about fans but only to give the reader an appreciation of the different types. The designers job is to consider the potential imposed loads onto the scaffold and ensure that the scaffold will remain stable under the worst weather conditions and impact loads.

In relation to problems with TG20, in our company we have a particular problem as we use ready lock transoms for our tube and fitting scaffolds. According to TG20 all scaffolds which use ready lock transoms must be designed. This is a bit crazy but speaking with the guy who jointly wrote TG20, it's due to the different manufacturers of the component, lack of technical data and no British standard.

Hope this helps.

Stuart
 
That's kinda the problem with the guidance, unless you are a designer the scope for interpretation is quite large, hence the confusion. As a dumb ass skiffolder why would you show a fan and then tell you that your not allowed to build it? Point taken though stuart, I think we are all a bit clearer now.

As for Cads itself, I have just received an update to include the updated version of tg20 and the check it plus. They are definitely improving it all the time and I like it more and more each time I use it.
 
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