NASC A managing director's opinion. (1 Viewer)

SWIFTY

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This is part of a discussion on the NASC posted on Linkedin by Terry Withers of The Admiral Scaffold Group.
Please read and comment.

You can find the whole discussion on Linkedin - The Scaffolding Market Place.

Although I agree with every word Terry says I have no connection at all with either Terry Withers or the Admiral Scaffold Group.





Terry Withers • We at The Admiral Scaffolding Group used to be members of the NASC. We left because a fellow director at the time did not want to continue membership. When he left we re-applied. Our application was refused because we had insufficient PAYE staff. We are as qualified as any NASC member to perform scaffold undertakings but their ruling, which is contrary to employment law, means that we cannot become members.
The NASC infers, in its website, that only NASC members guarantee a good product and this attitude is endorsed by many main contractors. This is a restriction of trade that is promoted by the NASC to the detriment of all other companies. I have witnessed numerous examples of NASC scaffolds not being erected to TG20:08 or using the methods of SG4:10 . Let us all get real, we all employ from the same labour pool so the chances of an operative changing his practices overnight is not real. He will get us into trouble as much as his last employer or his next one.

The NASC is meant to represent our industry. Unfortunately it has spent more time pandering to the Main Contractor's Group, the Health and Safety Executive and the Insurance Companies than looking after us.

With regard to TG20:08, why have we tried to regulate our traditional scaffold to conform with the systems scaffolds that are available? We are not comparing apples with apples; okay both of these provide access but so do mastclimbers and power cradles but everyone with half a brain realises that these supplies require their own set of regulations that relate to the service they offer. So why have the NASC thought that it is correct to try to assimilate our business with system scaffolds? By the sheer nature of system scaffold the design is regularised, standards spacings, lift heights, etc. traditional scaffold is often erected as a rule of thumb where the odd couple of millimetres either way does not affect the stability of the structure. What we have now though, are specifics which the world and his dog can look at and measure and claim that a scaffold does not conform whilst we experts know full well that it is fit for purpose. This has all come about as a result of European legislation. What our association should have done rather than try to fit our round peg into their square hole was to lobby for us to be distinguished from, rather than conformed to, these regulations.

At the same time as the HSE, in association with the NASC were producing their directive regarding designed scaffolds, the NASC missed another "once in a lifetime" opportunity for scaffold contractors. I know of no other trade who are asked to quote on something and hope that what it quotes for would latterly appear on a design. Can you imagine a tender to an electrician that read "Please quote to put all power and light into my new building". Yet this is precisely what happens within our industry. The NASC should have written into TG20:08 that it was the responsibility of the contractors to get a scaffold designed prior to tender. This could then have been issued at tender stage which would have meant that we were all pricing the same interpretation of the scheme. The spin-off from that would be that any alterations in the scheme would easily be picked up and ultimately strengthen our position when it came to getting paid for a variation. The reality is we now guess at the requirements because we cannot go to the expense of having a design drawing done for each tender and even if we did there is no guarantee that this design would be what the contractor really wanted. End result - all liability and cost to scaffold contractor. Good move NASC!

Then we get to the delicate issue of SG4:10. In the introduction to this document the NASC proudly boasts that in 2009 13,124 scaffold operatives achieved 20 falls from height. This is a great reduction from the 93 in 1999 and the NASC must be heralded for their introduction of the use of harnesses. What the figures of 2009 tell you though is that in 27,297,920 manhours worked by scaffolders there was an accident every 1.36million hours. To put this into perspective you scaffolders can expect to suffer a fall from height every 653 years. Be careful. It should be noted that none of these accidents proved fatal. Why in the world therefore did the NASC decides to issue a whole new set of guidelines to try to further improve this? It should have patted itself on the back and pointed out to the construction industry that we are far from being a most dangerous member; indeed we are one of the safest. By issuing this document we have once again fallen into the trap of trying to compete with system scaffolds which have the feature of an advanced guardrail system in place. The outcome is that labour costs will rise by about 15% plus the kit that will need to be purchased, which will not work outside of a display theatre, will costs around £380 per operative.

Scaffolders become scaffolders because they want to use their hands. If they had wanted to be chemical engineers they would have stayed at school and studied. They chose not to. Now the NASC has issued a 60 page document to tell them how to actively stop the fall they may experience every 653 years. Perhaps the NASC should have been the ones to leave school early. If you look at the committee that prepared this guidance it is hardly surprising that the content is as it is, there is a vested interest. Two of the companies sell and use system scaffolding, one company represents the interests of the insurance industry and would not give a hoot to the practicality of the situation as long as it reduces their paymaster's risk and a further input came from the HSE.

These guidances will increase the cost of scaffolding by anything up to 35%, the question is, "Who is going to pay?” If you ask the contractor they will all too readily quote that we must conform to TG20:08 and SG4:10. So NASC, a good day’s work at the office, your members should be very proud of your achievements. Let us all hope that in 2015 we are not looking at accident statistics that exceed those currently being achieved because it will be a costly exercise for all concerned.

Since October 2011 Siobhain McDonagh, the Labour Member of Parliament for Mitcham and Morden, has been requesting a meeting with the NASC to discuss this dilemma. To date both Gerry Cooper and Robin James have refused this.
 
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well presented,It said what most of us thought for a long time the NASC are in it for the money ,the men are used as excuse for making money , and we the scaffolding contractors are made to suffer the extra costs,health and safety gone mad
 
Good on you Mr Withers.

This is how the SCCR can be far better for the ordinary scaffolder on the street.

Common sense is what is called for at the end of the day

An organization for scaffolders, and overseen by scaffolders.

Without a vested interest in other sectors

After all the NASC is a limited company,and limited companies are here to make a profit......but off who's backs?.

Any organization that claims to be a regulatory body must surely be a not for profit affair otherwise there is always going to be a suspicion of underhandedness and greed.

I would bet my bottom dollar that without a distinct possibility of some directors within the NASC profiting from some of the changes made within TG 20 and SG 4 they would not have been implemented.
 
It's a sad, sad situation when a regulatory body decides to make money from us by siding with companies whose sole trading purpose is to make money from us. The very people the nasc should be protecting us from!:mad:
 
Very well put,the whole legallity of what the nasc is doing needs testing,the very fact that they are supposed to be the industry standard,who also sell the only accepted card,their rules,their card,stinks of conflict of interest,and the same directors of both companies have created a monopoly from which most of us are alienated,,,go figure:notrust::notrust:
 
A lot of the companies insisting on NASC membership have a dubious background to say the least. In April 2008, The Office of Fair Trading named 112 companies that it says colluded to inflate the cost of a wide range of contracts worth billions of pounds, including tenders for schools, universities and hospitals.[8]

The list includes several publicly listed companies, including Balfour Beatty, Kier Group and Carillion, with 80 of the firms have already admitted participating in some form of bid-rigging, or have applied for leniency in return for assisting the OFT. The allegations centre around "cover pricing", in which firms secretly agreed the prices they would submit during a tender process. A firm that did not want to win the contract would submit a price that was much too high. In some cases, the eventual successful bidder would then reward them with a secret payment. This bid rigging often involved false invoices. The OFT declined to comment on the value of the fraud.

Are the alarm bells starting to ring, if not they should be. I have attended quite a few seminars over the last few years at which the same people from the CISRS training centres are telling companies they should only be using NASC registered scaffold companies. I assume everyone is aware that NASC & CISRS share the same address. I'm all for a trade body for our industry, but I'd hope that everyone was represented fairly
 
Very Good Post Swifty, Been Saying For Years That The Nasc Was A Corrupt Cartel,They Are Just A Money Making Scam Basically, As My Old Father Used To Say An Old Boys Network. Blooming Crooks The Lot Of Them.
 
Very Good Post Swifty, Been Saying For Years That The Nasc Was A Corrupt Cartel,They Are Just A Money Making Scam Basically, As My Old Father Used To Say An Old Boys Network. Blooming Crooks The Lot Of Them.

I only copied and pasted it.

Terry Withers is the man who wrote it.
 
Will any NASC representative on this forum please comment on this letter.I think we would all be grateful for the NASC to justify why we need all these rules.
 
Will any NASC representative on this forum please comment on this letter.I think we would all be grateful for the NASC to justify why we need all these rules.

You,re Avin a Giraffe Daffy, As far as im aware there is no NASC Representative on the forum ( or at least one that is prepared to put his head above the parapet and admit they NASC )

But we do know they obviously monitor the forum. :eek:
 
well exactly,they must monitor it, so anyone out there from NASC willing to make a statement ?We need more common sense in this business, it's true what he says,one that sticks is the fact that we have to supply drawings sometimes for small 'special' jobs that cost as much to have drawn with calcs as does to erect the job.The same job we have been doing for the last 50 yrs that never needed calcs or a drawing and never fell down. Double the cost.
We also get brainwashed with statistics,we are always given the dramatic version. I don't know what his formula was for working out his results, but I have been in the business for 37 yrs and can count on one hand how many scaffs I have known have a serious fall, and all are still working now .We are branded as a high risk industry but it's commonly other trades that fall from scaffolds, because they have done something stupid , or removed some scaffold, but we get the stigma because it was a 'scaffold he fell from'
Anyone anonymous out there want to comment from NASC?? (as a last resort that is, I'd rather hear an official comment)
 
From a personal point of view, the NASC seem to have a habit of doing their talking in their brochures, their website and their videos. They never seem to offer someone to respond in forums like this where the people at the sharp end can ask them questions. They boast (wrongly) that they are the regulator for scaffolding in this country. They are not. That is a lie. A regulator is appointed by and is run by the government. I don't think the NASC has that much clout.

Let's face facts here, the NASC is a trade association. A trade association that supposedly speaks for the scaffolding industry. It speaks for its 180 or so members who pay inflated levies each year and no-one else.

I fail to see how even 2-300 (if it had that many members) can dictate to the rest of the scaffolding industry about rules and guidance.

The NASC may have done some good work in the past but they have also done a lot of damage to the scaffolding industry and livelihoods of good honest men who have been scaffolding for a long time.
 
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you lot are having a laugh. comments page 4

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnCiV2GEbxw]Scaffolding collapse, London, SW11 - YouTube[/ame]
 
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