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Rigger

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Just another Sh*t Site fot the cretins of this world :mad:

I have over the past few weeks being dismayed at the posting of some members of this forum as regards trade union membership and their intolerance of the views of others, some I may add trade union members themselves.

The rhetoric used and the intimidating manner does nothing to encourage people to join their appropriate trade union , in fact it turns people away, The insults and bully boy tactics of the playground have no place in the unions of today. History shows that a committed volunteer army is at least ten times more effective than a conscripted or “forced” army.
The Trade Union movement is not about a few days stoppage, usually about money, on a couple of plants.

But about building year on year a better environment for all working men and women and to be seen doing it in a democratic and fair way. I know there are dedicated trade unionists that post to this site that give their time, effort and sometimes hard earned money to further the cause. My hat is off to them. I was myself an active trade unionist between 1971 and 1975 and a Branch Secretary for TGWU for 3 years.

At that period in time we had a great opportunity to radically change the construction industry. We achieved some of our aims; other issues have still not been resolved to this day.
I know that the workers of this country need and deserve representative organisations to make their case at a national level. The employers have a vast network working on their behalf at all levels including the media and government.

Is it our national attitude of “I am alright Jack, fook you” or the forelock touching demeanour of many, or is it the apathy and cannot be bothered stance that holds us back from having a true democracy in this United Kingdom of ours.

Sorry I do not have the answers………but the French may.


Cut and paste from Wikipedia
“The national strike of 1972
In 1972, shortly after its formation, UCATT along with the GMWU, and TGWU, two sister unions involved in construction and civil engineering, was involved in a major national joint industrial dispute. Building workers all over the country went on strike, demanding a minimum wage of £30 a week, along with a campaign to abolish the 'Lump Labour Scheme', which institutionalised casual cash - paid, daily labour. The strike took the form of a 13-week long stoppage which affected many major sites, effectively bringing the industry to the table.

Several months after the strike, at a time when some of the strikers' aims had been largely settled, a number of building workers were investigated for acts of sabotage and vandalism during the dispute, of these a number were party to high profile police investigation, mainly arising from pressure by major contractors, and politicians anxious to suppress a grass roots working movement, which, for the first time ever, demonstrated that the building industry could be organised by trade unions where the cause was just. Two building workers, Ricky Tomlinson a TGWU Plasterer and strike leader, and Des Warren of UCATT, a steel fixer, and leading lay official, became known as (the "Shrewsbury Two)" and were found guilty of common law conspiracy as a result of their picketing activities. Both were jailed at Shrewsbury Crown Court.

The whole of the trade union movement saw common cause with the Shrewsbury strikers, and it was widely felt that the trial and prosecution had been unsafe, based more upon industrial and political revenge from the Heath Government, than sound principle. Statements from unsafe sources had been taken by biased police officials working under the direction of a hostile government.
In the intervening years, Des Warren developed serious health problems as a result of overdoses of medication whilst in solitary, while his fellow campaigner, Ricky Tomlinson went on to become a successful entertainer, who along with others took their case to the TUC Conference in 1975, to little success.
In 2004, Des Warren died without the pardon that various activists and trade unionists had campaigned for ever since
.
Post-Warren
After Warren's death, a number of key safety campaigners, unions, and Warren's own family gathered to commemorate him in Liverpool, the following excerpts were from a web site in his memory:
At the beginning of the 1970s, the poor safety record and low wages was creating anger amongst unionised workers in the construction industry. Non-unionised workers were subjected to a system known as ‘the lump’ – cash-only payment in a lump sum, without any security or employment rights. The Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians (UCATT) proposed a ‘builder’s charter’ – guaranteeing a 35-hour week, a wage of £1 an hour, improved safety and pensions.

The building industry – led by companies such as McAlpine's and Laing's – were terrified by this threat to their profits, as were Ted Heath’s Conservative government. Against the background of the Vietnam War and emerging protest movements, the ruling class was worried alternatives to capitalism gaining popularity. In fact Lord McAlpine was treasurer of the Tories, so he was doubly worried!
The unionised workers began to use ‘flying pickets’ as a tactic to win the lump workers around to their cause. Among the leaders were Des Warren (who worked in Ellesmere Port for a time) and Eric (‘Ricky’) Tomlinson (who is now better known for his roles in Brookside and The Royle Family).

On September 6, 1972, coachloads of UCATT and Transport and General Workers Union members from North Wales and Chester went to the market town of Shrewsbury to assist trade union members there, by picketing the sites. At one place they were greeted by the son of one boss brandishing a shotgun, at another site a building company director challenged Des Warren to a fight, but by the end of the day when the men set off for home they felt it hadn't been a bad day's union work, and there had been no trouble with the police.
Six months later – with the conflict between strikers and government intensifying – the authorities took “vicious retribution and recrimination”, in the words of one of today’s speakers. Warren and Tomlinson were arrested in connection with the Shrewsbury events (along with twenty-two others), and charged with unlawful assembly, affray and conspiracy to intimidate. After a bizarre and blatantly unfair trial, they were found guilty of the conspiracy charge by the capitalist state and a middle class jury.

Warren received three years in prison, and Tomlinson got two years. They became known as the ‘Shrewsbury Two’, and a campaign was launched to set them free. But if the trial had been a deliberate conspiracy of the Employers' Federation, government and state, then the campaign saw a conspiracy by leaders of the Labour Party, the TUC and UCATT to limit the threat to the profit system. Workers were told to vote for a Labour government, but when they got one Harold Wilson and James Callaghan refused to cut short Warren’s sentence or launch an inquiry. Callaghan’s government began the attack on workers’ rights that was accelerated by Thatcher and is still supported by Blair, Brown, and almost every politician you are likely to see on the news.

Along with speeches from Mick Abbott (an ex building worker, shop steward and friend of Des) and Dave Ayres (who helps run Des’ trust fund), a video was screened. In it, Des described how he was treated in prison. When he demanded a single cell, went on hunger strike and refused to wear prison clothes, a doctor prescribed some ‘medication’, which Des was eventually persuaded to take for three weeks. He recalled how “within ten minutes I was asleep…it was hazy the first couple of days…my hand used to come to a halt and my words went smaller and smaller”.

Recession and recovery
During the late 1980s, and early 1990s, UCATT suffered a long debilitating recession, with successive attacks from a hostile Conservative government, which culminated in the union having to go into a long period of management over serious financial deficits from falling membership rolls. UCATT having had tried for many years to sustain cash contributions from members collected on site in the age of increasing technology.

This period of serious decline was co incidental with strong rumours of a merger with various other unions, chief among them the TGWU, and gains being made by GMB.
Throughout the 1980s, a strong joint Sites Movement of regular UCATT, TGWU, GMB, AEEUW, members characterised the construction Unions' work on sites in Major Cities, many of whom had remained crowded, unsafe, and casualised places in need of true reform.

UCATT however, emerged under the new leadership of George Brumwell, its General Secretary in 1992.
George Brumwell, a strong, charismatic leader, put the lean-and-mean UCATT back to work, and by 2001, had largely affected a turn around in the union's fortunes, with a number of cost containing measures such as the closure of a number of local offices and strategic redundancies. This all but eliminated the deficits, and built a new more readily sustainable UCATT which was significantly smaller than before.

The union also found itself running a 'Safety Culture' campaign across the industry, while campaigning for a case for construction and regeneration, which became part of the strategy of the New Labour government following its election victory in 1997.
Following a rule-change in 1995, UCATT has a lay Executive Council. Its present General Secretary is Alan Ritchie, formerly the Scottish Regional Secretary. It is affiliated to the Trades Union Congress and the Labour Party, as well as to the Building and Wood Workers' International and the EFBWW, European Federation of Building and Wood Workers.
Today
In 2006, UCATT, T&G, and GMB, the successors to the joint unions of 1972 ran a seven day strike on the construction of Heathrow Terminal 5 in pursuit of £1.00 on bonus, and back pay. The employer was Laing O'Rourke the successor to John Laing Ltd, one of the big employers of 1972. After the dispute was resolved the strikers received 80% of their original aims and substantial back pay.[citation needed]
As representative of the views of site workers, UCATT takes the unions' seat on the government/industry body, the Strategic Forum for Construction.
Alan Ritchie was forced to stand down as General Secretary in March 2011 due to an order by the Certification Officer. The 2009 election was to be treated as 'void and of no effect' and a new election to be run by the 29th July 2011. Michael Dooley claimed the election was unfair because less than 50% of UCATT's 130,000 members received ballot papers.[4
 
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Good post as usual Rigger and as you quite rightly point out the French could teach us all a lesson. Like all large organisations though, some individuals will leave a bad taste in the mouth, doesn't mean the idea is bad it's just human nature. The posts to which you prefer are not out of the ordinary to hear in most pubs across the land and I feel it's more letting of steam than any trend against the union mentality. The worst example of this is any religion, great ideals but as soon as you add human nature it all begins to fall down slightly.
 
I would like to thank aom for his help in assisting me to edit the text in the original post :sad2: ( he was sooo smug for 5 minutes that I got off my bum and sorted it) thanks for the motivation mate a sign of a good gaffer:D

I hope more of you will now read it and post your comments as to why workers in the Construction industry seems unable to organise themselves into a viable trade body and have a voice in the running and legislation.
 
Rigger

Nice post and well presented, I too whole heartdly agree that some of the intimidation of individuals upon this site has been frankly shocking and does indeed present a very poor impression of the "Unionised Man"

Where I say you are completley wrong is by looking across the Channel.

I love France and get over there at least once a year, however the Union situation completely stiffles the country, and they know it, thats why they voted in Sarko, I know he is quite unpopular now, but a lot of that is because he has come to the end of his term in office.

In economic terms the country is nearly broke, and with all the gilt edged life long pensions handed out in France this country like us to a lesser degree is heading for BIG trouble...No use having a strong union when your country is bankrupt and running cap in hand to the IMF alla Greece, Ireland, Portugal..

All said and done its about the very big picture and that is GDP...You can forget the all rest, because if that is way above your spending then your in deep trouble, check Frances GDP against its spending, you will be surprised.
 
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Rigger

Nice post and well presented, I too whole heartdly agree that some of the intimidation of individuals upon this site has been frankly shocking and does indeed present a very poor impression of the "Unionised Man"

Where I say you are completley wrong is by looking across the Channel.

I love France and get over there at least once a year, however the Union situation completely stiffles the country, and they know it, thats why they voted in Sarko, I know he is quite unpopular now, but a lot of that is because he has come to the end of his term in office.

In economic terms the country is nearly broke, and with all the gilt edged life long pensions handed out in France this country like us to a lesser degree is heading for BIG trouble...No use having a strong union when your country is bankrupt and running cap in hand to the IMF alla Greece, Ireland, Portugal..

All said and done its about the very big picture and that is GDP...You can forget the all rest, because if that is way above your spending then your in deep trouble, check Frances GDP against its spending, you will be surprised.

Did you make it to Le Mans this year PW?
 
Its the first one in 5 years that I have missed....Gutted!! Especially bearing in mind where McNish had his shunt is right were we sit for the first 3 or 4 hours of the race!!
HOWEVER...I am never repeat NEVER going to miss another...Contacted ticket supplier already and provisionally booked them already :)
 
Unions without doubt are needed but the generation of workers today has been lucky, the likes of the strikers who fought long and hard in the 70s and 80s changed so many of the working practices and the pay leaving their legacy for us all. I reckon that now the population has had things in place for so long they have forgotten how to stand up and be counted.
In the same way that voting in the elections is a chore, which many don’t take up so is being in a union they simply don’t understand the value that is offered verses the fees and therefore don’t join.
 
Its the first one in 5 years that I have missed....Gutted!! Especially bearing in mind where McNish had his shunt is right were we sit for the first 3 or 4 hours of the race!!
HOWEVER...I am never repeat NEVER going to miss another...Contacted ticket supplier already and provisionally booked them already :)

Yeah that's a shame it was certainly eventful. It was a great weekend for motorsport with the rain soaked F1 and Moto GP.

Less than 4 weeks to Silverstone now, can't wait!
 
Just another couple of points to throw into the debate:

In my view its no coinicidence that the one and only time the UK has had to go to the begging bowl that is the IMF was at the height of Industrial Disputes during the 70's which brought this country to the verge of bankruptcy, subsequently the Union sponsored Labour Party was swept aside in 79 to make way for the much hated (By the Unions) Tories, whom in my view had no choice what so ever but to kerb the Unions power and return the country to prosperity. In summary what I am saying is the Unions brought the tough stance from the Tories upon themselves, however there is no denying the UK as a whole was in fantastic shape when handed back to the Labour Party in 1997...Strange how things go in cycles...Labour sponsored by Unions nearly bankrupt the UK once again...:confused:

In regard to the French Unions and the "I'm all right Jack" attitude, well you would not think the same statement would go hand in hand but let me explain:

This is a true story, reasearch it if you like but this is fact.

A particular manufacturing company is having an over capacity problem and has come to the conclusion that it needs to close one of its facilities

Facility One has very good production rates, makes a fantastic product that sells well, employs lots of people from the local area and turns a tidy profit, so much so the Head Office has thrown Millions of pounds at this facility modernising and improving the buildings and infrastructure.

Facility Two production is poor, the product they produce is past it shelf life and sells poorly and the plant loses huge amounts of money on a regular basis and to top the lot has regular Industrial Disputes.

So which one do the company shut down and make thousands redundant causing devastation in the local area?

You might be surprised to know they actually closed Facility One...The reason?? because the Company in question was Peugeot, and rather than the French trying to reach a compromise with their "Brothers and Sisters" on the other side of the channel where by probably both plants could have stayed open, admittedly with less workers but at least there would have have been employment....At the end of the day the French Unions and Workers didnt give a flying fcuk about their fellow employees, remember also we were fully paid up members of The European Union so there are supposed to be no restrictions on labour movement etc...So in this case its "Im all Right Jaques" so stuff you...

French Trade Unions...hmmmm
 
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quality post pw where did you copy and paste that from ??
 
quality post pw where did you copy and paste that from ??

Haha...Sorry to dissapoint Scaffy...I gleamed it all from my diminishing grey matter and personel experience....Not a Copy & Paste in sight...:D

In regard to Peugeot, this happened to the Ryton Plant just outside Coventry, I got to know quite a few great people in the plant from Line Workers to Managers whilst we were replacing the roof (I had 3 years as a Contracts Manager for a Roofing Company) and was gutted for them when I found out. We had just finished the 3rd phase of a £8 million roof replacement project and they were spending elsewhere on the plant so it came as a massive shock...
 
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Thanks PW for your input and the points raised,also to the others that have posted thier views to this thred

When I asked the questions, Is it our national attitude of "I am alright Jack, fook you" or the forlock touching demeanor of many,or is it the apathy and cannot be bothered stance of others,that holds us back from having a true demcracy in this United Kingdom of ours

Sorry I do not have the answers...........but the French may

I was not saying the French model of labour relations is the one for us.What I was trying to say was that the French as a Nation have a great deal of pride in thier Country and thier customs and practices and are prepared to fight for what they believe in

They are out on the streets when any other nation or thier own Government imposes laws or regulations that they do not accept as the French way

You mentioned peugeot closing a factory in the UK, rather than the French one.Is this because they were afraid of the backlash from the French workers that were organised and prepared to fight for thier jobs ??

France still has three car companies Renault,Peugeot,Citreon although the last two merged as PSA

We have no major UK owned car plants,Jaguar/Land Rover are owned and managed by TATA an Indian Company,Rolls Royce as we know is owned and managed by BMW
 
so true rigger,i remember years ago when marks and spencer were in difficulty and decided to shut shops in france.the french workers hit the streets in their thousands-----you guessed it the closures never happened:mad:
what chance do we have in this country when we give foreign companies millions to invest when the only reason they come is to close the plant and ship it to china,india or anywhere else.f£$king disgrace
 
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