Formal Training Agreements (1 Viewer)

Sorry lads got side tracked last night as I was posting so left a smilie!!

The question I wanted to ask you lads is:

Are you in agreement with these "Sign Up" contracts??

Is there a better way of doing it??

We as a company insist that any lad we send on a course must enter into this contract with us, this is on the basis that the longer they stay with us the less they pay back until it becomes void after a given time period. If they are not willing to undertake this commitment then we simply dont send them.

I fully understand why this situation occurs and indeed experienced it directly with a previous company that I worked for were by the lad signed up for his Part 2, attended the course and never came back to us!!:mad: (He was lured by Laing O Rourke with £££ signs which is another subject that makes my blood boil!!) We duly clawed back what we could from him along the lines of his week in hand and a few days holiday he had accrued but this was still far short of the outlay the Company had undertaken.

Let me know your views please.
 
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Hi, first post here....

Our company uses a training agreement with anyone that receives formal training, with the exception of the trainees, whos courses are subsidised anyway.

The employee has to sign a training agreement where if they leave within 2 years they pay back 50% of the costs and within 1 year they pay 100% of the cost. This is 100% legal to do, how you actually get the money back is a different matter. Clawing back weeks in hand, holiday pay etc goes so far. After that you may be looking at legal action, but then again as its a legally binding agreement, if it does go to court all costs will be picked up by the recipient.

Hope that helps.

Dave.
 
Is it not the case that you get back 75 percent of the course fees if you do put the lads through ,,, and if they take off it was a case of bad judgement by yourselves ?????Mc crorys scaffolding does that to the lads over here in NI and to be honest its a stinkin thing to do when you take a lads or ladies lyin week off them !:sad:
 
Its not a problem with the younger lads who go through the government funded systems. Problems occur with the slightly older lads, the likes who have part completed courses etc etc. We also put a lot of people through IPAF, PASMA, NPORS courses too. If you go shelling out £800 plus per course for these guys and they dissapear the minute they ge their cards I think its justified to recover these costs. Its their personal qualification not the companys.
To be honest we dont even really like to take on (unless there a new trainee)anyone who's not already carded as 95% of our clients wont even let you onsite without one.
 
Here in Ireland all the employers pay into whats called a levy , it entitles you to send employees for training to the citb and you can recoup 75 percent back off the goverment ,,, what way does it work in England ???
 
21s

The Companies get far from 75% back in grants, I have dug some prices out for you lads to compare.

UTN (Wakefield) Part One £698.50 Ex VAT
Registration Fee £65.00
One Day Assessment £295.00 Ex VAT
2 Weeks Salary (Average Trainee on say £75.00 Day)
NI on Lads Salary (11%)

Total Outlay £1363.75

Grant Income (£26.00 Per Day including assessment day so 11 Days Total)

Total Income £286.00

I think the levy (I believe NI is covered by UK CITB) you are refering too is the mandatory imposed CITB levy which is paid on top of the above and is set at 05% of the PAYE for the business if they pay more than £80k a year.

So as you can see there is quite a discrepancy.
 
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that has surprised me ! it was a previous employer that sent me on my part one course 4 years ago that told me the 75 percent figure , didnt have any rason to doubt him as he was paying for it !!! is there any way that it could be different ??? and id love to know what your advanced guys are getting paid if a trainee is getting 75 a day ,,, bog standard for a tradesman over hereis 10 ph ,, YES thats 80 a day ,, !!!!!
 
was there not something a few years ago that if the company sent any one on a course they could claim back 3 times the price from the european goverment training scheme. also like mentioned a lot of sites want the men fully trained before they step on site. so is this not also an advantage to the company not just the man on the spanner
 
21s

The Companies get far from 75% back in grants, I have dug some prices out for you lads to compare.

UTN (Wakefield) Part One £698.50 Ex VAT
Registration Fee £65.00
One Day Assessment £295.00 Ex VAT
2 Weeks Salary (Average Trainee on say £75.00 Day)
NI on Lads Salary (11%)

Total Outlay £1363.75

Grant Income (£26.00 Per Day including assessment day so 11 Days Total)

Total Income £286.00

I think the levy (I believe NI is covered by UK CITB) you are refering too is the mandatory imposed CITB levy which is paid on top of the above and is set at 05% of the PAYE for the business if they pay more than £80k a year.

So as you can see there is quite a discrepancy.

As a company can you claim NVQ achievement grants from the government ? I believe its in the region of £500 for a NVQ 2 and £700 for a level 3.

I recently paid my own way through the advanced course and the NVQ assessment I've held a part 2 for over 20 years rarely been out of work and paid all my taxes .

As a self funding individual I am not entitled to the to the government grant for NVQ achievement in the same way companies are yet I have paid "the levy" all my working life in the form of INCOME TAX :mad::mad::mad:
 
I agree, in some aspects regarding, signing up to a agreement, regarding further training, for a willing candidate.

However, i feel, you could not Generalise the situation, of a Employee, leaving his current employer, after receiving training, and signing a 'Agreement'.

There will as always be the 'Shoot and Scoot' scenario of 'Get what you can when you can' and ' Owt for Nowt', this is where the 'Signed agreement' would be appropiate.

My concerns are, if this was classed as a 'Legal Document' and unforeseen circumstances fell on the named Employee on the 'Agreement' and he/she had to leave there current Employment, which could be open to a myriad of circumstances, albeit, Personal,Health,Marital,fatality or even a step-change to a diverse occupation.

Would a unscrupolous Employer, try and claw back everything? On the 'Diverse Occupation' aspect i could be waivered, however, the rest....

Your thoughts

Paddy
 
Signed Agreements: Indentured Apprentices are a consideration and would give both the Apprentice and the Firm a mutual continuity of service for both parties. However, this arrangement would only work if BOTH parties were committed and continuity of employment could be sustained by the Firm.

However, the nature of our Industry is to hire and fire when Projects are completed and or lay off due to lack of work, therefore, the majority of Scaffs are nomadic and mercenary, is there a case where Scaffolders should consider establishing an Association of Labour Only Scaffolders, which would take on Projects and Supply ALL Labour from Line Management through to Scaffold Erectors ?
 
Industrial Gypsies :eek:

There would be a national outcry:- Lock up your wifes,daughters and anything else thats not screwed down, 'The Scaffolders are coming to town'

The Vikings would seem like the 'Sally army'

Paddy
 
LOLooooooooooo, aye, Paddy M8---the sale of ski masks would go through the roof Marra, WWWwwwooooooooooooooooooooooosh;)
 
Its true that the employers can say heave ho when ever there is a sniff off them being overstaffed , not giving a monkeys about what happens to the scaffolders lives and plainly looking after themselves , but when the shoe is on the other foot they want us to sign agreements so that they can shaft you up the ass if you go when it doesnt suit them ,,, fu....in typical ,,, as Garry says , we are a nomadic mercenary breed and i myself have worked for most of the companies n eire ,, its all about control ,,,!!!!!:mad:
 
Gaz
of course it is an advantage for employee and employer to have operatives trained. We do a training ageement which is for two years and with increments of 6 months, 25% per 6 months, but what about the other training? first aid, rescue from harness, IPAF, harness inspection, combisafe net, as well as supervisory IOSH, SSSTS, and the big one at the moment that the CGUK are pushing is behavioral training, BAM insist all supervisors have this every year to work on thier projects, then of course there is Pt1, Pt2, Pt2 Assessment, Advanced, Advanced Assessment, we pay for the course and pat thier wages while they are training, I know many firms who may bankroll the training cost but claw it back weekly and make the lads use thier holiday pay while they are training which infuriates me as the playing field is far from level, so if you get offered training take it but dont moan when asked to sign an agreement.

---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------

Industrial Gypsies :eek:

There would be a national outcry:- Lock up your wifes,daughters and anything else thats not screwed down, 'The Scaffolders are coming to town'

The Vikings would seem like the 'Sally army'

Paddy

Jesus Paddy!!!, you forgot lock up your pubs. :amazed:
 
Totally agree with Scaff in relation to the pt1 pt2 and associated assessments they are the recognized apprenticeship of our trade. An employer invests a lot in getting an employee whats is in effect a trade for life ! Its not lot to ask for a little bit of loyalty in return.


PMSL:D @Paddy posting away in his Che Guevara T shirt ! come the revolution Bruv:nuts:
 
As most of you will be aware by now, i am a Trade Union activist. I have been a Scaffolders Shop steward for over 10 years, for the last 6 years i have undertaken every H&S TUC course available to me.

The days of a 'Militant Tendecy' in my eyes vanished, with my fathers demise as a Coal miner, under the Thatcherism regime.

For the last 32 years , nearly (6.3.78) i have been employed by the same company, and through the period involved, many a rumpus has occurred.

On the company's behalf, they allowed and paid for my Advanced card (ASRE) over 10 year ago.

I requested TUC training in order to become a H&S rep, in order to further my understanding regarding the undertakings involved and implications regarding breaches of H&S law.

After over 5 year of intermediate training, the last being TUC Dip in OCC H&S which was a year long course, i can feel comfortable sitting round the table with the policy makers within our company.

The Training i recieved, enabled me to have that bit extra knowledge, and , maybe not at boardroom level, but at site level, have the upper edge, on site managers, which has been proven time and again (thank god for the internet) regarding scaffolding op's

The relation between myself and Management is one of respect (earned) and from this positive bi-lateral agreement, the guys are happy ( not all the time) but they have a channel :)sick:Me ) through which they can raise there issues.

The bottom line is, if my company, did not allow me, Paid leave for training, which includes ' Protocol, how to form a Committee meeting, Grievance procedures etc, etc i could have been a loose cannon, for the guys i was supposed to represent, which in turn could of had job implications

Training or specific types, is not for everyone, some love, some hate, however, i feel anybody that wants to do extra training should be welcomed by there company as a asset.

Regards
Paddy Tech IOSH :D
 
A wise move on your companys behalf,in theory paddy you are the middle man ,your firm know by doing this most problems are pacified by 3 parties being involved,ie lads on site,yourself , to management,often by the time these situations hit the top the heat is taken out of the arguement,so the working operations of the firm are a lot smoother,good communications,and somebody the lads can relate to is definatly the way forward i think mate.
 
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