Protection Fans (1 Viewer)

Tufty

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Anyone any ideas on why protection fans are a thing of the past on street jobs do we not drop things anymore? Also when I was on the tools monaflex was a weather protection system not a substitute for fans, brickguards etc. Any views?
 
we still put fans on as protection , quiet a few clients dont spec them tho
 
Scaffy
Been past one of your jobs tidy!!
Glad to see someone can still do a bit!
 
Had a lengthy 'discussion' with project manager recently regarding fans, bloody idiots dont have a clue....

This link will give you just about as much info on fans as anyone could possibly want.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2003/hsl03-17.pdf

Dave.
Fantastic !

---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------

Anyone any ideas on why protection fans are a thing of the past on street jobs do we not drop things anymore? Also when I was on the tools monaflex was a weather protection system not a substitute for fans, brickguards etc. Any views?
Probably because they are one of the 35 or so things that the HSE say you now need a design for Tufty, that costs MONEY !!!!! as we all know nobody wants to pay out any money at all until it all goes wrong.
 
Anyone any ideas on why protection fans are a thing of the past on street jobs do we not drop things anymore? Also when I was on the tools monaflex was a weather protection system not a substitute for fans, brickguards etc. Any views?

As far as i am aware in manchester it's part of your pavement permit to have a fan reguardless of the size of the scaffold.
Like this one i did about 5 years ago .
 

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Fantastic !

---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------


Probably because they are one of the 35 or so things that the HSE say you now need a design for Tufty, that costs MONEY !!!!! as we all know nobody wants to pay out any money at all until it all goes wrong.

Not true mate. I think TG20:08 allows for 3 different protection fan scenarios.

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 PM ----------

anyone any ideas on why protection fans are a thing of the past on street jobs do we not drop things anymore? Also when i was on the tools monaflex was a weather protection system not a substitute for fans, brickguards etc. Any views?

combisafe!
 
Not true mate. I think TG20:08 allows for 3 different protection fan scenarios.

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 PM ----------



combisafe!
Well I'm confused now mate, haven't got a copy of TG20 08, but unles I'm getting it all wrong and have missed something obvious , item 23 on the list below "protection fan" needs a design if we are to believe what the hse say, or is it just a guide, or is tg20 different, or am I just loosing it ???

Unless a scaffold is a basic configuration described in recognised guidance e.g. NASC Technical Guidance TG20 for tube and fitting scaffolds or manufacturers' guidance for system scaffolds, the scaffold should be designed by calculation, by a competent person, to ensure it will have adequate strength and stability.
All scaffolding should be erected, dismantled and altered in accordance with either NASC guidance document SG4 for tube and fitting scaffolds or the manufacturers' erection guide for system scaffolds.
For scaffolds that fall outside the scope of 'Basic Scaffolds' as described in bullet point 1, the design information should describe the sequence and methods to be adopted when erecting, dismantling and altering the scaffold, if this is not covered by published guidance as detailed in bullet point 2.
Any proposed modifications or alterations outside a generally recognised standard configuration should be designed by a competent person.
Handover certificates should refer to relevant drawings, permitted working platform loadings and any specific restrictions on use.
All scaffolding inspection should be carried out by a competent person whose combination of knowledge, training and experience is appropriate for the type and complexity of the scaffold he is inspecting. Competence may have been assessed under The Construction Industry Scaffolders Registration Scheme (CISRS) or an individual may be suitably experienced in scaffolding work and have received additional training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme for the specific configuration he is inspecting.
A non-scaffolder who has attended a suitable scaffold inspection course and has the necessary background experience would be considered competent to inspect a basic scaffold (ie a site manager).
The scaffold inspection report should note any defects and corrective actions taken, even when those actions are taken promptly as this assists with the identification of any recurring problems.
To prevent use by unauthorised persons of incomplete scaffolds, relevant warning signs identifying the areas where access is not permitted should be displayed at the access points to these areas. In addition, access to the incomplete areas should be prevented by suitable physical means.
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Competence and supervision issues
All employees should be competent (or in the case of trainees, supervised by a competent person) for the type of scaffolding work they are undertaking and should have received appropriate training relevant to the type and form of scaffolding they are working on.
Employers must provide appropriate levels of supervision taking into account the complexity of the work and the levels of training and competence of the scaffolders involved.
As a minimum requirement, every scaffold gang should contain an appropriately qualified scaffolder for the type and complexity of the scaffold to be erected, altered or dismantled. This may be an individual who has received training under an industry recognised training scheme, e.g. CISRS, and has been awarded the scaffolder card or someone who has received training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme, to the limit of the configuration(s) involved.
Trainee scaffolders should always work under the direct supervision of a qualified scaffolder (i.e. a working foreman). Scaffolders are classed as 'trainees' until they have completed the approved training and assessment required to be deemed qualified.
Erection, alteration and dismantling of complex designed scaffolding (e.g. suspended scaffolds, shoring, temporary roofs etc) should be done under the direct supervision of a competent person. This may be a qualified Advanced scaffolder, a design engineer providing they possess the necessary industry experience or alternatively an individual who has received training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme to the limit of the configuration(s) involved.
[Back to top]

Scaffold structures that need to be designed
1.Dead Shores
2.Flying shores
3.Raking shores
4.Cantilevered scaffolds
5.Truss-out Scaffolds
6.Access Birdcages
7.Façade retention
8.Access scaffolds with more than the 2 working lifts allowed with TG20 'Basic Scaffolds'
9.Buttressed free-standing scaffolds
10.Temporary roofs and temporary buildings
11.Support scaffolds
12.Loading Bays founded on the ground
13.Mobile and static towers outside base/height limitations
14.Free standing scaffolds outside base/height Limitations
15.Temporary ramps and elevated roadways
16.Staircases and fire escapes
17.Spectator Terraces and Seating Stands
18.Bridge scaffolds
19.Towers requiring guys or ground anchors
20.Offshore scaffolds outside Offshore Contractors Association (OCA) handbook
21.Pedestrian footbridges or walkways
22.Slung and Suspended scaffolds
23.Protection fans, Nets and Pavement Frames
24.Marine scaffolds
25.Boiler scaffolds
26.Power line crossings
27.Lifting gantries and towers
28.Steeple scaffolds
29.System scaffolds outside users guide parameters
30.Sign board supports
31.Sealing end structures
32.Temporary Storage on Site
33.Masts, Lighting Towers and Transmission Towers
34.Advertising hoardings/banners
35.Any scaffold structure subject to:
Vibration
High Loading
Long term duration
High risk areas
Loading from passenger/goods hoists
[Back to top]
 
'Unless a scaffold is a basic configuration described in recognised guidance e.g. NASC Technical Guidance TG20 for tube and fitting scaffolds or manufacturers' guidance for system scaffolds, the scaffold should be designed by calculation, by a competent person, to ensure it will have adequate strength and stability.'

It's in there mate, trust me, I had an 8 board wide fan built last week and I consulted my engineer who then double checked TG20 and concluded that no design was required. I also had a 8.0 x 9.0 x 7.5m access birdcage built with a 1.5m cantilivered section to the top lift, that we also concluded by consulting TG20 that we didn't need a dedicated design for. This was a Bovis job in the city so we double check everything.
 
Hi All

I would agree with Phil above.

TG20:08 has details of 3 standard fans which may be used with basic scaffolds without the need for designs. Provided the fans are built to these details then they should be okay.

Many of the clients are starting to think everything needs a design nowadays.

I have had Clients saying that anything over 4.5m needs a design.

Problem is how they interpret TG20:08 and the HSE guidance above.

Good for us designers, but not good if you not allowed for in the price.

Most people dont want to be responsible for a decision and it is easier to pass the buck to somebody else.

All the best out there.

Chris Eng :)
 
'Unless a scaffold is a basic configuration described in recognised guidance e.g. NASC Technical Guidance TG20 for tube and fitting scaffolds or manufacturers' guidance for system scaffolds, the scaffold should be designed by calculation, by a competent person, to ensure it will have adequate strength and stability.'

It's in there mate, trust me, I had an 8 board wide fan built last week and I consulted my engineer who then double checked TG20 and concluded that no design was required. I also had a 8.0 x 9.0 x 7.5m access birdcage built with a 1.5m cantilivered section to the top lift, that we also concluded by consulting TG20 that we didn't need a dedicated design for. This was a Bovis job in the city so we double check everything.
What was the point of changing bs5973 that we had all got used to for tg20 08 that I am struggleing with now. Thanks Phil I am non the wiser but you have proved your right. I would have thought reading what the hse have written, that the scaffold you attach the fan to i.e. basic scaffold didn't need a design, but the fan itself did as it clearly states in the list 23 protection fan ! confused or what .
 
What was the point of changing bs5973 that we had all got used to for tg20 08 that I am struggleing with now. Thanks Phil I am non the wiser but you have proved your right. I would have thought reading what the hse have written, that the scaffold you attach the fan to i.e. basic scaffold didn't need a design, but the fan itself did as it clearly states in the list 23 protection fan ! confused or what .

It also quotes.. '6. Access Birdcages'

Confusion indeed.
 
Any scaffold other than 4 + 2 or 5 + 1 boards under 3 lifts does not need a design!!! Everythig else needs a design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is why we are saying why is the training not including drawing reading!!!!

Its like asking a milkman to deliver milk from sheep, f**king hard!!

Regards Ragscaff
 
It also quotes.. '6. Access Birdcages'

Confusion indeed.
Phil /Chris, we have the new CADS software with tg20 checker, it costs loads and is supposed to be state of the art. This morning when I got to work I thought I would do a little experiment.
I got the program to estimate a scaffold 20m long x 3 lifts with the top lift boarded, I then added a cantilevered protection fan to the scaffold along its entire length 4 m high x 5 boards wide. The program stated that I needed 6 ties, but the scaffold failed because "design advice should be sought when adding a fan" so this scaffold needed a design.

I would love to go to CADS and ask if this is the case and are they sure about the accuracy of their program bearing in mind the cost, I can post the tg20 check report if someone can tell me how to. I realy need clarification on this as there seems to be a lot of contradiction, what type of fan could I add without a design ? and why is it not on their program if there is one or 3 as suggested.

If anyone else uses CADS give it a go and see.
 
save as a pdf then convert to jpg or png through zamzar.com , this forum doesnt allow uploads of pdf/word files which i think is whatcads saves in
 
dangeruss,

For what it's worh I reckon it's all in the wording. "Seek design advice" is not telling you it needs a drawing it's the cads team covering it's ass. I have a copy of tg20 and it's had a couple of updates with the most recent allowing certain configurations to come under basic, even a 10kn loading bay. Maybe I misunderstood earlier advice but I thought debris netting jobs had to be designed but not anymore as long as you follow the additional tie pattern and install Aberdeens. I was playing with cads yesterday as well and kept telling me to seek design advice for buttrress but according to engineers I spoke to not all buttressing needs designed. It's like the old sit com, "Confused, you will be by the time we update this sh*t again.":D
 
Any scaffold other than 4 + 2 or 5 + 1 boards under 3 lifts does not need a design!!! Everythig else needs a design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is why we are saying why is the training not including drawing reading!!!!

Its like asking a milkman to deliver milk from sheep, f**king hard!!

Regards Ragscaff

Mate,

That is totally inaccurate.
 
dangeruss,

For what it's worh I reckon it's all in the wording. "Seek design advice" is not telling you it needs a drawing it's the cads team covering it's ass. I have a copy of tg20 and it's had a couple of updates with the most recent allowing certain configurations to come under basic, even a 10kn loading bay. Maybe I misunderstood earlier advice but I thought debris netting jobs had to be designed but not anymore as long as you follow the additional tie pattern and install Aberdeens. I was playing with cads yesterday as well and kept telling me to seek design advice for buttrress but according to engineers I spoke to not all buttressing needs designed. It's like the old sit com, "Confused, you will be by the time we update this sh*t again.":D
aom, does this mean that the tg20 checker on the cads software that costs £1000 or so is not worth a w*nk ! and basicaly you/i/we've wasted our money on this gimicky dross? could it be that another organisation who don't actually erect scaffolding have once again cashed in on the fact there are no hard and fast rules in scaffolding ,just a raft of guidances and best practices.
 
Scaffold checklist

This guide is intended to clarify when scaffold design is required and what level of training and competence those erecting, dismantling, altering, inspecting and supervising scaffolding operations are expected to have obtained.
Design and inspection issues
Unless a scaffold is a basic configuration described in recognised guidance e.g. NASC Technical Guidance TG20 for tube and fitting scaffolds or manufacturers' guidance for system scaffolds, the scaffold should be designed by calculation, by a competent person, to ensure it will have adequate strength and stability.
All scaffolding should be erected, dismantled and altered in accordance with either NASC guidance document SG4 for tube and fitting scaffolds or the manufacturers' erection guide for system scaffolds.
For scaffolds that fall outside the scope of 'Basic Scaffolds' as described in bullet point 1, the design information should describe the sequence and methods to be adopted when erecting, dismantling and altering the scaffold, if this is not covered by published guidance as detailed in bullet point 2.
Any proposed modifications or alterations outside a generally recognised standard configuration should be designed by a competent person.
Handover certificates should refer to relevant drawings, permitted working platform loadings and any specific restrictions on use.
All scaffolding inspection should be carried out by a competent person whose combination of knowledge, training and experience is appropriate for the type and complexity of the scaffold he is inspecting. Competence may have been assessed under The Construction Industry Scaffolders Registration Scheme (CISRS) or an individual may be suitably experienced in scaffolding work and have received additional training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme.
A non-scaffolder who has attended a suitable scaffold inspection course and has the necessary background experience would be considered competent to inspect a basic scaffold (ie a site manager).
The scaffold inspection report should note any defects and corrective actions taken, even when those actions are taken promptly as this assists with the identification of any recurring problems.
To prevent use by unauthorised persons of incomplete scaffolds, relevant warning signs identifying the areas where access is not permitted should be displayed at the access points to these areas. In addition, access to the incomplete areas should be prevented by suitable physical means.
Competence and supervision issues
All employees should be competent (or in the case of trainees, supervised by a competent person) for the type of scaffolding work they are undertaking and should have received appropriate training relevant to the type and form of scaffolding they are working on.
Employers must provide appropriate levels of supervision taking into account the complexity of the work and the levels of training and competence of the scaffolders involved.
As a minimum requirement, every scaffold gang should contain an appropriately qualified scaffolder for the type and complexity of the scaffold to be erected, altered or dismantled. This may be an individual who has received training under an industry recognised training scheme, e.g. CISRS, and has been awarded the scaffolder card or someone who has received training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme, e.g. SA-FE, to the limit of the configuration(s) involved.
Trainee scaffolders should always work under the direct supervision of a qualified scaffolder (i.e. a working foreman). Scaffolders are classed as 'trainees' until they have completed the approved training and assessment required to be deemed qualified.
Erection, alteration and dismantling of complex designed scaffolding (e.g. suspended scaffolds, shoring, temporary roofs etc) should be done under the direct supervision of a competent person. This may be a qualified Advanced scaffolder, a design engineer providing they possess the necessary industry experience or alternatively an individual who has received training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme to the limit of the configuration(s) involved.
Scaffold structures that need to be designed
1. Dead Shores 2. Flying shores 3. Raking shores 4. Cantilevered scaffolds 5. Truss-out Scaffolds6. Access Birdcages7. Façade retention 8. Access scaffolds with more than the 2 working lifts allowed with TG20 'Basic Scaffolds'9. Buttressed free-standing scaffolds 10. Temporary roofs and temporary buildings 11. Support scaffolds 12. Loading Bays founded on the ground 13. Mobile and static towers outside base/height limitations 14. Free standing scaffolds outside base/height Limitations 15. Temporary ramps and elevated roadways16. Staircases and fire escapes 17. Spectator Terraces and Seating Stands 18. Bridge scaffolds 19. Towers requiring guys or ground anchors 20. Offshore scaffolds outside Offshore Contractors Association (OCA) handbook 21. Pedestrian footbridges or walkways 22. Slung and Suspended scaffolds 23. Protection fans, Nets and Pavement Frames 24. Marine scaffolds 25. Boiler scaffolds 26. Power line crossings 27. Lifting gantries and towers 28. Steeple scaffolds 29. System scaffolds outside users guide parameters 30. Sign board supports 31. Sealing end structures 32. Temporary Storage on Site33. Masts, Lighting Towers and Transmission Towers34. Advertising hoardings/banners 35. Any scaffold structure subject to: o Vibration o High Loading o Long term duration o High risk areas o Loading from passenger/goods hoists Note: The above list is not exhaustive and any scaffold that does not comply with manufacturers guidelines as published in handbooks will require a specific design produced by a competent person.


Taken from the HSE site.

The quote I made in regards 4 + 2 , 5 + 1 came direct from the HSE from the meeting. Don't shoot the messenger. If it is wrong then again it backs up the fact that the information we have at hand to work with is too confusing. What is law & what is guideline!!

Ragscaff
 
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