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daz
20th June 2010, 02:56 PM
Just wondering how many fellas are completly comfortable working to design drawings,an ideal example happened to me last week when i showed a advanced scaff a job,and went through the drawing with him before he started the work.All seemed well when i left him,saw him in yard that night asked if everything was ok,he assured me it was,left it at that,2 days later went to check the work he was carrying out,to find hardly anything erected,he confessed he hadnt a clue about the drawing and couldnt follow it,poor 5od said he hadnt slept for 2 nights because of worry,is this down to not enough trainging on drawings through the course,or just a daft knob being to proud to ask for help.:D

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 03:00 PM
daz i've come across this before, there are a lot of lads out there that struggle with dsyexlia .

ragscaff
20th June 2010, 03:05 PM
The HSE think that drawings are covered in the courses. All I had to do was work with two other people & errect to a drawing in a fashion.

No training was given on the course. I have used drawings a lot over the years & did not find it a problem. But if you have never come across it how do they expect you to know!!

Same old thing the training is not up to date & does not cover enough praticle experiance. The NVQ section should have a section on Drawings:rolleyes:

Ragscaff

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 03:20 PM
The HSE think that drawings are covered in the courses. All I had to do was work with two other people & errect to a drawing in a fashion.

No training was given on the course. I have used drawings a lot over the years & did not find it a problem. But if you have never come across it how do they expect you to know!!

Same old thing the training is not up to date & does not cover enough praticle experiance. The NVQ section should have a section on Drawings:rolleyes:

Ragscaff

Well i've not been here that long but that is a pretty good statement ragscaff and rest assured i'll be putting that across to our management and will ask why this isn't in the advanced training course

dangeruss
20th June 2010, 03:26 PM
One of our lads failed his cscs health and safety touch screen test 7 times before he finaly told me he couldn't read or write, we told the test centre and they gave him the audio test and he got a pass straight away.It seems that in this day and age far from becoming rarer , reading and writing or a lack of them are becoming more common.

Ian McInnes
20th June 2010, 03:26 PM
Drawings should be part of the courses. However, scaffs are scaffs and engineers are engineers :0). I would give the chargehand a copy of the design drawing along with my own interpetation in scaffolding layman's terms (if I thought he needed it). I've also come across an engineer's support drawings where it has been physically impossible for the number of fittings required to fit the space. That's down to this particular engineer never working on a site. We need a bit of training both ways I think.

ragscaff
20th June 2010, 04:06 PM
The problem is that the HSE interpritation of training means that if you hold a part 2 card you are able to complete the basic scaffold & are trained to read a drawing to erect scaffold to a part 2 standard. The same goes for advanced.

You are right a scaffolder is a scaffolder & an engineer is an engineer.

Anything other than 2 + 4 boards or 1 + 5 boards has to have a drawing now.

A trained scaffolder can then erect to this drawing. But how can you if you are not trained!!!!

:wacko::confused:

Ragscaff

scaffy
20th June 2010, 04:34 PM
drawings are complicated and to be fair i struggle meself at times ha ha

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 04:57 PM
i carry out inspections every week and find some design drawings to be of vewry poor standard with very little detail

scaffy
20th June 2010, 05:01 PM
yeh we have used several design companies over the years , we used to use an old boy who did all by hand but you couldnt read his writing , We use a guy Called John Houlihan to do all our audits , we have in house capabilities as well but external audits pick up all the real issues

ragscaff
20th June 2010, 05:07 PM
Does this ring a bell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone once thought that harnesses were a good idea:push:

Now they know it is nearly impossible to rescue someone safely with in 10 minutes. I know lets change it now. Pity they did'nt think of that first.

Now lets do everything to drawing.

Pity they have'nt looked into that either. Most drawings are poor, more than likley more than 60% of ticketed scaffolders would not be able to work to them due to no training!! (No offence intended)

Great out of the frying pan again to get a burnt arse:nuts::eek:

Ragscaff

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 05:20 PM
Does this ring a bell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone once thought that harnesses were a good idea:push:

Now they know it is nearly impossible to rescue someone safely with in 10 minutes. I know lets change it now. Pity they did'nt think of that first.

Now lets do everything to drawing.

Pity they have'nt looked into that either. Most drawings are poor, more than likley more than 60% of ticketed scaffolders would not be able to work to them due to no training!! (No offence intended)

Great out of the frying pan again to get a burnt arse:nuts::eek:

Ragscaff

.
I've said this before the NASC knew that the HSE were not happy withtraversing and tunneling when SG4:05 came out. All the methods in SG4:10 to be released in November were available in 2005.So were now changing the rules again ( not happy) so I understand everyone elses opinion.

DECROMAX
20th June 2010, 05:29 PM
Our in house engineers at dsl are pretty poor to be honest. I have had drawings where ladder beams go through ladder beams!
Working in a refinery I think 60 per cent of the drawings we have had have not worked out.
There is always some obstacle or problem, but usually we use our noggin and they always pass the end result.
As you say it is surprising how many cant read drawings correctly but sometimes it is just as much the engineers fault than ours.

scaffy
20th June 2010, 05:36 PM
Done a job for cardys at this end , on the 6th lift ladder beams thrown out on front and rear to go over side roof , 40ft span from unit beams and the designer showed the unit beams hanging under the ladder beams on doubles , queried it with cardys who told me to contact the designer to justify why it couldnt be done , apart from that incident we only really use one designer now (the rutts) who is an ex scaffolder so at least he knows the crack and these working drawings can be worked too.

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 05:41 PM
Done a job for cardys at this end , on the 6th lift ladder beams thrown out on front and rear to go over side roof , 40ft span from unit beams and the designer showed the unit beams hanging under the ladder beams on doubles , queried it with cardys who told me to contact the designer to justify why it couldnt be done , apart from that incident we only really use one designer now (the rutts) who is an ex scaffolder so at least he knows the crack and these working drawings can be worked too.

.
Only queeried a designer once. Slung scaffold from a footbridge 3m span between the beams scaffold was hung from wtf 2.7m for light duty use. Scaffold built to design input in the 7 day inspection

scaffy
20th June 2010, 05:47 PM
think only a designer with scaffold experience produces workable designs ,

ragscaff
20th June 2010, 05:50 PM
Once upon a time being an advanced scaffolder meant something.

If I had a drawing that did not quite work then I could alter it & sign / date it.

Now it has to go back to the design company. Do they pay subscriptions to the NASC per drawing. ( No offence intended!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

As I have said before let me do my job, the only help I need is with loadings!

Ragscaff

scaffy
20th June 2010, 05:55 PM
Yeh i remember them days too , designers are all busy tho so TG20 must be a good earner , maybe theres royalties to pay to NASC ha ha

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 05:55 PM
think only a designer with scaffold experience produces workable designs ,

In the real world scaffy, even an experienced scaffolder will find it hard to querry a university student and all his knoledge

scaffy
20th June 2010, 05:59 PM
You know the score , i know plenty of advanced scaffolders that cant read drawings , occasionally the erected structure resembles the drawing as well

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 06:05 PM
I remember looking at a scaffolf for SGS on Sheffield Hospital. Me to Foreman theres facade bracing missing on front elevation and why are you not working to SG4:05 guidelines . Reply Ian the scaffolds been up since 1994 SG4:05 when in we built it

ragscaff
20th June 2010, 06:54 PM
I know plenty of university students with all their knowledge who can't poor a cup of tee let alone have twenty years scaffolding experiance!!!

That is why we are saying advanced scaffolders should be a minimum of 5 years in the industry (used to be 10!!!):(

Ragscaff

rcg172
20th June 2010, 08:13 PM
hi mate. I agree entirely with the fact that most technical drawings are either impossible to read or simply aren't suitable for task and need an experienced scaffolders knowledge to erect a safe structure that it is as close to the design as practically possible.

The main problem is the fact that a lot of these designs are drawn up by university graduates who have undertaken five or so years worth of civil engineering study. These guys certainly know how to calculate loadings etc, etc but simply don't have the knowledge or many years experience to put theory and practical skills together.

Since TG:20 was introduced, I wonder how many practically experienced scaffs have bern given the opportunity to become in house engineers? Not many.......... If there were, then technical drawings might not be such an obstacle

ragscaff
20th June 2010, 08:17 PM
Used to be able to work together. Now who knoiws!!!!!!!!!!:sad2:

Ragscaff

rcg172
20th June 2010, 08:22 PM
hi mate. I agree entirely with the fact that most technical drawings are either impossible to read or simply aren't suitable for task and need an experienced scaffolders knowledge to erect a safe structure that it is as close to the design as practically possible.

The main problem is the fact that a lot of these designs are drawn up by university graduates who have undertaken five or so years worth of civil engineering study. These guys certainly know how to calculate loadings etc, etc but simply don't have the knowledge or many years experience to put theory and practical skills together.

Since TG:20 was introduced, I wonder how many practically experienced scaffs have bern given the opportunity to become in house engineers? Not many.......... If there were, then technical drawings might not be such an obstacle

XxIANxX
20th June 2010, 08:29 PM
Loooked into getting my qualifications to become a design engineer, basically you need to do 1 day a week at college for 2 years hnc civils this is a basic qualifivation to get into scaffold design , as i understand it you need to sunmit 5 years of work to the recognised body to gain full accrediation. although i stand to be corrected

scaftek
20th June 2010, 09:51 PM
i agree their should be more training to read drawings the best people to do this are the engineers who draw them what is worrying is the young lads coming off thir courses after 6 months who can't read a drawing or use a scale rule to work out load list(engineers take note most scale rules we use dont have a 1:75 scale also dont do what one engineer did and make 1:139 scale just because it fitted the paper then tell me youve printed a comprative scale on the bottom}

ChrisEng
21st June 2010, 07:30 AM
Hi All

I have only put up small independents, but been in the game over 25 years, so hopefully know what I am doing by now.

I quite often ask my customers if the job worked okay to the drawing, but dont get too many people saying they cant read them or not working.

I do an Isometric/ 3D view of the scaffold which can help the understanding of the works, but also can be confusing for some jobs.

I thought that the training to advanced level involved erecting scaffolds to a drawing, even though they are relatively simple to the real world. Must admit this is probably in a group so if you are not sure about drawing you follow the rest.

Thanks for the interesting comments.

All the best

Chris Eng:)

HatterScaff
21st June 2010, 07:40 AM
daz i've come across this before, there are a lot of lads out there that struggle with dsyexlia .

:worried:Unfortunately I don’t think its dyslexia, its that the poor sod’s ant read and write, we employ them as scaffolders not office workers, and the training will never be able to solve this. They will understand the drawings if explained in more than one way, but you need the patience of a nun, they have managed to get through this far in their life, and they don’t want to admit it.:embarrest:
But a quiet word on the side in private asking if they have any reading problems, may well help. :smile1:

spannerbitch
21st June 2010, 05:28 PM
I know the drawings are basic, but you get drawings for all the scaffolds on your part 1 and 2 etc.. Should give you an idea of what is going on... but yea, for the more advanced drawings it can be a head **** with some people.

daz
21st June 2010, 06:12 PM
The drawings on the basic and advanced courses are a complete piece of pi55to follow,its great when its designed to be erected in a purpose built area,nothing can really go wrong,but when these jobs are discussed over the phone,or by various other ways there is always the possibility of oversights,all boils down to communication between all parties involved,or often the lack of it.Any decent scaff can find a possible problem with a design,but having to send the drawing away to be amended is just lost time and money,i think these designers need to consult the scaffs more for better solutions to all concerned..

Dave_Ja_Vu
22nd June 2010, 06:44 AM
Makes you laugh really dont it....

The whole point of the 2A and 2B course is to finalise the training of the scaffolder to make him competent. The criteria of the part 2 is/was/should be to be able to read and interpret a design drawing....
Just goes to prove the courses are completly inadequate and are just an attendance course with all or most of the input from the trainers. Ive never known anyone fail a course.

Fare enough there are sometimes problems with learning difficulties...got enough of those on our firm, but 99% of the info is visual.
I go through drawings with the lads if needs be to clarify any details or problems of the build, just as any supervisor/manager should do.

I cant recall a time when a job has worked 100% to the drawing but a decent scaff should be able to provide a work around that is acceptable.
Even had some instances where the designer has said to me 'take a pic of what you did and I will do the drawing to it'...:bigsmile:

IMHO is all about communication but I think there should be more emphasis in the training on working with drawings. Seems just about every topic on here lately is going back to inadequate training standards...time for change me thinks.

Dave

RedViking
22nd June 2010, 04:36 PM
Did my advanced @ training 2000 (blackburn...lol)
got given the drawing for the flying shore after 2 mins give it back cos it was wrong and no bay sizes !!
As for reading drawings i have a very good understanding of them for two reasons ,i did tech drawing in school & my dad is a scaffolder and has dome some big jobs over his career so i was looking at them from about 12/13 !!!

Rigger
22nd June 2010, 07:58 PM
Drawings like most things in this life come in a lot a different qualities and are only as good as the knowledge of the guy drawing them and the scaffolders experience working to them I would expect an advaced scaffolder to be able to interpret a fairly complex drawing, below this level I always found a "sketch"showing exactly how the job was to be erected helpful some of the best working drawings I have seen have come from supervisors and contract managers but these days that is not allowed unless they have the engineering qualifications are in place
Being an old timer I "think" in imperiel and metric is my second measure language you had to be careful years gone by when your drawings could be metric or imperiel

pedscaff
25th June 2010, 04:09 PM
Not all drawings are good it depends on the designer if he comes from a scaffold back ground then it will be better, but if he is just an engineer well what do you expect. As for scaffs they should learn to reed drawings from your charge hand the same as you learn to scaffold, not from courses. No one ever became a scaff from what you were told at the CITB. And as for that stupid card that is just a plastic with a picture on it. To tell every one that you whent to school it dose not make you a scaff. The only way to do that is by doing the job, and working with some one who can pass on the trade. And I mean working with tube and fitting not system scaffold.

scaffy
25th June 2010, 04:31 PM
engineers drawings are usually the worse , however designer with scaffold experience the drawings are workable

RedViking
25th June 2010, 04:56 PM
Not all drawings are good it depends on the designer if he comes from a scaffold back ground then it will be better, but if he is just an engineer well what do you expect. As for scaffs they should learn to reed drawings from your charge hand the same as you learn to scaffold, not from courses. No one ever became a scaff from what you were told at the CITB. And as for that stupid card that is just a plastic with a picture on it. To tell every one that you whent to school it dose not make you a scaff. The only way to do that is by doing the job, and working with some one who can pass on the trade. And I mean working with tube and fitting not system scaffold.

Is part of your comment (the bit about school) intended to be a dig at me and my post where I mention about tech drawing ....pal?

James..Redcar
25th June 2010, 10:52 PM
i know scaffs are not supposed to be the brightest, but reading drawings/ doing drawing jobs is not rocket science... its not very often(in my experience) the drawings are completely correct, but part of being a scaff is to recognise the failings and see if the drawings are still workable or as they say "back to the drawing board"... also, i have had many drawings, where the engineer/designer had not even been to the location before he came up with the drawing.. as they say... looks good on paper..,

pedscaff
26th June 2010, 08:22 AM
Red sorry m8 if you though that I had a dig at you, but when I said school I meant the CITB school.

RedViking
26th June 2010, 09:25 AM
Red sorry m8 if you though that I had a dig at you, but when I said school I meant the CITB school.


No worries pal busy I n Glasgow ? Do lyndons do much your neck of the woods ?

pedscaff
26th June 2010, 10:55 AM
I'm in Glasgow to m8 don't know about lyndons

ragscaff
26th June 2010, 11:49 PM
That is what we are saying!!

You know can't change from the drawing. If it show a standard on a drain cover then you have to send the drawing back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!


You are now supposed to be trained to work to the drawing not the real world.


Ragscaff

scaffy
27th June 2010, 12:01 AM
gone silly hasnt it , designers making a packet

Mark_ISL
27th June 2010, 12:20 AM
gone silly hasnt it , designers making a packet

Some of the designers are pig sick of it though - the better ones will tell you they are fed up having to do drawings for a bog standard independent, just because the tie detail is ever so slightly different to TG20 :amazed:

I've never been a scaffolder (too much like hard work :toung:), but have spent a lot of time working with various engineers over the years. Some are good, some are brilliant - but some are bloody useless - how can I price a temporary roof when the beamed cantilever it's supported off isn't shown in detail ? :mad:

I think it's generally true that those who've been on the tools produce better, more workable designs but I've found more often than not something will crop up on site that requires a change to the drawing :blink:

scaffy
27th June 2010, 12:25 AM
we do a lot for thames water over plants tanks power rooms ect , everytime these are drawn we have to adapt the drawings as never correct , some are way out , tg20 is well confusing - i did attempt to read it but i didnt have a degree in engineering and structural analysis
scaffolding is hard work thats why ive been in office 8 years and have a beer gut

scafftag
25th November 2010, 07:10 PM
Just been directed to this thread from a fellow scaff,because i was asking whether anydody knew where i could maybe do a course or training in order to get to know how to read drawings.Did my advanced at bircham in 1991 and scaffold erection was text book stuff with simplified drawings to match (still didnt really understand them if truth be know)Hasnt really mattered much because been working on the street,but now am on sites = drawing work.Help me fellow scaffs,am more than willing to pay for a course and am keen to learn but where do I go.Any advice would be greatly appreciated, cheers guys

Tony Mason
25th November 2010, 08:10 PM
The drawings that ive worked to are quite easy to understand, braces are shown as dotted lines and your given the maxium lift height and bay sizes.

superscaff75
25th November 2010, 10:36 PM
try here scafftag its not a course but could help you out till you find something

How to Read a Technical Drawing | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_6646209_read-technical-drawing.html)

and here

http://library.thinkquest.org/C005594/interpret.htm

XxIANxX
26th November 2010, 07:54 AM
http://www.alwynrichards.com/downloads/ahr-scaffoldingdesignflyer.pdf

You could try this

RMair
26th November 2010, 03:36 PM
I can highly recommend Alwyn Richards. Peter Pallett is also very good for design appreciation courses.

We do not charge additional for minor revisions to drawings. A decent design brief and thorough site survey should eliminate the chances of silly things like uprights being on top of drains, infront of doorways etc

As an engineer, if I am given an up to date drawing of the building and have done a site survey id say its my responsiblity that the design is safe and practicle for use.

Very often however I'm just asked to do a design last minute without the latest drawings or the time to conduct a site survey

projectmanleo
28th July 2011, 04:40 PM
Hi thur,
I Wish to know the equivalence of stored scaffolding materials weight to it's volume.
* What volume of scaffold can i mount with 24 Tonnes of complete scaffolding materials.

chosen one
28th July 2011, 04:57 PM
Training should be given to all scaffolders that are asked to erect scaffold to design drawings. Any supervisor worth his salt will spend the first few hours with the lads on the morning they commence these type of scaffolds to ensure the lads are comfortable with the works. This would inturn help and teach the scaffs how to understand and read drawings. Also a good sign is a scaffolder with his own scale ruler.

bigfish
7th September 2011, 05:37 PM
I always go through the drawings with the leading hand prior to it being erected,to make sure he knows and understands it,then expensive cock up's can be avoided(we hope).I also preview the drawing via computer with the designer,then you can tweak it to make it workable,using this method you get your input from the scaffolders point of view and less drama's.:):bigsmile:

Jason-Gibbs
7th September 2011, 06:01 PM
I usually have the Drawings snatched off me, as soon as i get them.
I have a nasty habit of eating the paper, you see... :embarrest:

pedscaff
7th September 2011, 10:21 PM
come on lads i thought this was scaffolders on here, are you telling me that there are men who say they are scaffs and cant read a design drawing. were did they get there cards when i started you spent 1 year on the ground then went to part one then one year as a number 2 then went for part two if the charge hand said you were good.with in that time i had learnt to read drawings use friction clamps erect shoring scaffolds before going for part 3 so in in my opinion they are not real scaffs.

frederik
7th September 2011, 10:38 PM
Ive known a few real scaffs who can hardly read...Really.

Jason-Gibbs
7th September 2011, 10:52 PM
Honestly... Ive only met a handful of Scaffolders, who can read a Design Drawing - Loads have Advanced, who cant read a drawing.
Theres even been some - With Part 2 tickets who CANT tie a tube off on a rope and wheel...

Thats the world we live in nowadays... Too much time taking a back seat and taking the easy money, while others carry them.

Me? - Id be ashamed of myself if i couldn't read a drawing, let alone tie a tube off. :oh:

Alan Reade
8th September 2011, 10:21 AM
Sorry guys,
most of the comments on here say more about the scaff than the engineer.
Part of your role as a scaffolder is to be able to read and understand drawings. Most Engineers do not mind your critique they will accept your input and knowledge, provided you are correct.
You need to strive to improve yourselves as engineers have strove to better their lot.
When Scaffolders were out there earning 200 a day training, engineers were earning 30 a day and giving up their evenings to learn a trade.
In todays world of construction the Engineer is invariably asked to produce an engineered drawing without adequate information and without seeing the site but never the less the drawing is wanted today.
Yes there are bad designers in the industry as are there bad scaffolders and bad managers etc. this however is born from an industry that has driven many of the better engineers and scaffolders etc to leave the industry, following years of poor conditions.

In the 70's & 80's SGB had a full team of Engineers around 35 from memory but they became a training ground for the other companies who would just poach the Engineers as and when they wanted hence SGB stopped training Engineers. It was at the same time that SGB stopped running training courses for Scaffolders in the reading of drawings.

Here we are today and the value of a good Engineer is apparent, as with all these things TOO LATE!!

As you sow so shall yep reap!

If you want to get better at what you do you may need to contribute, you help your Engineer to be better he will help you.

regards
Alan

Kevin Smith
8th September 2011, 10:31 AM
My guys are in the process of erecting a suspended scaffold on a PR.....80m into it and all the supports are to the drawing in the same position as a pipe.............yes, dismantle and start again...........engineers need to be on site more or let scaffs design the scaffold and they add the calculations...........like the good old days......me dar told me that :)

HatterScaff
8th September 2011, 10:34 AM
Alan, get your head down:D

BMB
8th September 2011, 03:52 PM
I can't help but smile reading the posts on here.

Alan you are right mate, thats the bottom line. Hatter: love it.

As for scaffolders reading drawings, we have a job running at the moment where we have designed a gantry and temp roof, before we started another engineer designed a lifting gantry which was supposed to be attached to the scaffold we are designing...(they would have continued the design had they not taken 3 weeks to do the first little bit) I went to site and was presented with the drawing done by the other engineer, I couldn't read it, it was diabolical: at 1:150 scale for starters which is tiny, set-out terribly on the page, no notes, no dims, stuff on top of each other.. just useless.

It doesn't matter how many drawings you've read in the past, you weren't gona read that! I feel genuinely sorry for scaff's who have to try and work with crap drawings like that and then, when something is in the wrong place or clashes (like Kevin says above) you have to strike and re-erect or pay for the engineer to change it!

I would be embarrassed if that had been my drawing, I think it is our job to make the drawing as easy as possible to understand.. thats just basics.. right?

aom
8th September 2011, 04:50 PM
That's bang on BMB, that's what we pay you for and therefore becomes bare minimum that the scaffs can understand it. If a scaff gets an unrealistic request for a job we would tell them we would need to come and see the job so an engineer should be no different, droppers where pipes are are just not on.

jakdan
8th September 2011, 05:24 PM
spot on BMB.
I was a contracts manager in my last job and thought i could read most drawings with ease having been brought up reading the designs of two (who i believe were very good design engineers).
however we were very busy and the engineer had to sub the design out to another design company (very reputable) our engineer gave me a ring and asked me to come and collect the drawing he was now printing off, he said nothing, pretented to be on the phone and pointed at the drawing to collect.
i took the drawing back to my office to get my head round prior to giving it to the scaffs etc. after 2 hours of scrathing my head, i had to swallow my pride and go to our engineer and ask him to decipher it for me.
i didnt even get through the door and he was pisssing himself laughing saying i wondered how long it would take you. this drawing was so complicated to read/understand, small, poor notes, little clouds everwhere,different colours and a bridge that wasnt a bridge.


KEEP IT SIMPLE WE'RE SCAFFS

aom
8th September 2011, 05:30 PM
You need to strive to improve yourselves as engineers have strove to better their lot

Sorry Alan, the engineers are the one's charging top dollar for their work, the onus is on them to make the layman understand it and to know the positions of obstacles. If it wasn't we would just do it ourselves.

Jason-Gibbs
8th September 2011, 05:30 PM
KEEP IT SIMPLE WE'RE SCAFFS

This i will have to disagree on Dan...
We're not 'just Scaffs'.

We do a job that VERY VERY FEW others could do, no matter how educated they are...

We are the oil that keeps the Construction machine rolling along, that keeps hundreds of other trades and millions of other people in work and helps build this country into the 'Great' power it is today.

No matter how many white skinned-black wannabes, undercutting foreigners and murdering Muslims out there, its the guys in the mud and dirt that keep this country going.

a.k.a: Us and other working class grafters. :)

BMB
8th September 2011, 05:36 PM
Jakdan, I wouldn't have paid for it mate... if you can't read it, you can't use it! Its worthless. If you put a scaffold up that didn't get access to were the client asked for it (not that you would! lol) you'd ave re-built it.. same with drawings.

We don't sub anything now, we *generally* have the capacity to service our main clients with a 7-10 day turn around.. the main reason why I don't do it is EXACTLY what you described above.. I don't know anyone who could do it how I wanted it doing and I'm not going to start training the competition!!

B

jakdan
8th September 2011, 05:52 PM
I said keep it simple, J

Not we're "just scaffs".

i'm not taking anything from us, but to me scaffold is simple, it goes up in squares and thats how simple it should be kept, not disguised with educated bullsh1t.

PS bmb,we didnt pay for it.

Alan Reade
9th September 2011, 03:08 AM
I have no problem sticking my head above the parapets Hatter, thats why my name is shown.
It is what it is fella, I am not looking to upset others just giving a different perspective.
I have no problem with guy turning a spanner but I have no problem with guys doing the drawings either. 2 sides to every story.
Alan

---------- Post added at 04:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 AM ----------


You need to strive to improve yourselves as engineers have strove to better their lot

Sorry Alan, the engineers are the one's charging top dollar for their work, the onus is on them to make the layman understand it and to know the positions of obstacles. If it wasn't we would just do it ourselves.

Thanks for the response AOM, you are right the Engineer is the one charging top dollar for their work and their work should be good enough is there a reason the same rule should not apply to the scaffolder?

I have been in this game for a couple of weeks now so have seen a scaff or two in my time in general not such a bad bunch of guys, having said that I have not met one who could not do everybody elses job better than they can.

Engineering a scaffold is not as easy as drawing it and Engineers need your input to make their designs viable. Very easy to be the critic no so easy to be the author.
As previousley stated I am aware there are poor Engineers out there BUT even the good ones get limited time in which to visit a site survey it and get the design on paper.
As an example if an Engineer whilst visiting a site for five minutes has missed a pipe 30m above ground that is in the way of a standard, how is it the scaffolder building the scaffold below it for a week has not spotted it before he cant go any further.

Read my previous post in full you will see I am not defending poor or lazy engineering nor will I defend poor or lazy scaffolding.
If you guys want to know more about design you need to put the effort in, ask your provider to explaine the design to you ask them why they have drawn what they have, if you think there is a better way ask why they have not done what you think you would have.

In house, Scaffolding should not be an adversarial industry. I have worked with many top Engineers and Scaffolders alike I learnt my trade by asking questions of both.
regards
Alan

Alan Reade
9th September 2011, 06:14 AM
You need to strive to improve yourselves as engineers have strove to better their lot

Sorry Alan, the engineers are the one's charging top dollar for their work, the onus is on them to make the layman understand it and to know the positions of obstacles. If it wasn't we would just do it ourselves.

Don't devalue the scaffolders own position or responsibility in this, he is not a Layman and scaffold designs ARE NOT produced for the layman they are produced for trained tradesmen, Scaffolders.
regards Alan

frederik
9th September 2011, 07:03 AM
Good post Allan. Without collaboration at first stages of design, there must always be grey areas. Especially on complicated structures. Some engineers do not like to be quieried as some scaffolders dont question design. Not a great combination.

aom
9th September 2011, 03:09 PM
Alan, read through the thread, there are a lot of scaff's complaining about some drawings. I actually agree with what you say and really never had an issue with designers or drawings. A mate of mine did send me a drawing of a temporary roof he has to build just to give me a look as it's one of the few structures I have never built. I have to be honest and say I had no idea how to make head nor tail of it and I hope my mate doesn't get upset by me saying this but I reckoned a child could have made a tidier job. It would be easy to point at my total lack of experience on these structures but an experienced scaff with lots of experience behind him and reading drawings as second nature should be able to pick up and understand any drawing of any structure. I'm sorry to argue a point with a drawing I can never show you but you would really need to see this to believe it.

My other point was, if you need a week to produce the correct drawing tell them it will take a week, don't spit out a drawing in 24 hours and then blame the client for drain cover or over head pipe blocking the route. We could debate back and forth till we are blue in the face but I just like guy's to stick their hand up and take responsibility for their own actions now and again instead of blaming the guy doing the erecting who probably did notice the overhead pipe but took it for granted the engineer did as well.

You are also quite correct in saying we are tradesmen, trained and ticketed. I know you are also aware if it's not in a book we can't build it without design and if it's not on the drawing we can't build it either. The scaffolders input is being marginalised by the powers that be and that is why the designers are coming to the fore, so maybe the job is not what it was and there is a new customer base to service one that doesn't have 25 years experience of overcoming adversity but more spoon fed with all the new regulations we are faced with.

Just an opinion Alan.

Alan Reade
9th September 2011, 03:37 PM
Hi AOM
I have read the thread and fully respect your opinion, I can only restate my original point there are without doubt poor engineers as well as poor scaffolders. Finding the good ones is the trick.
The industry is unfortunatley reactive as opposed to proactive. I am in full agreement that if it takes a week to prep a design say so I am just no so sure how many of the engineers clients would be prepared to wait.
Again you are correct the nanny state has created the problems we now have to deal with and we all have our hands tied. I have a year or two under my belt also, none the less I find this industry harder to work in than when I started.
Stay well fella
regards
Alan

philliosmaximus
9th September 2011, 04:09 PM
Aom if its the drawings iam thinking of then i gotta make you right the where hard work ,but you do get kinda used to working them out :cry:

aom
9th September 2011, 05:15 PM
I wouldn't have mentioned it Phil and I'm sorry for not being in direct contact since I got them. I knew you would be well acquaint but to be honest I would need a lot longer, I would get it eventually like most things but there would have been much scratching of heads before kicking that off.

Alan,

Fair enough, there is definitely good and bad everywhere. I think it was the crack at improving my lot that aroused my defence mechanism.;)

Have a good weekend.

Alan Reade
10th September 2011, 02:41 AM
Hi AOM
nobody here taking cracks at you only putting an alternative point of view.
Nothing wrong with a good defence mechanism either :)
regards
Alan

hotspanner
5th May 2012, 07:24 PM
theres many varied and valid points amongst the various threads on this debate but from my view i think yes scaffolders should be able to read drawings and at some stage of their training it should be formally introduced not just expected that you should have picked it up.
personally i have never had formal training with it and have been lucky enough to be able to pick it up,and if i didn't understand something would ask what it was or why so as to learn, but its not your charge hands/ lead spanners job to teach you but to interpret and pass on to the guys under him where he wants the tube to allow the job to be erected as quickly and saftley as possible ( on time means on budget)
one of the problems i personally think is the speed that allows you to go from labour to advanced just to have the right qualification and hopefully paypacket, but at the end of the day you just cannot learn everything you need in this short time, AND SO ARE NANNIED THROUGHOUT YOUR WHOLE SCAFFOLD CAREER with the need for drawings and schedules/recommendations-rather than use the experiance you should have gained throughout your time on the spanners, although with the ticket you hold comes the responsibility to be able to erect everything asked of you - i think the timescale from pt1 -pt2 should be min of 5 years and within the course should include drawing assesment and understanding (something i was told at birthcem had been dropped due to cost) and the pt2- Adv min of 10 years, every 3 yrs should be a 1 day refresher to bring you up to date with changes like tg20 etc.
back to the desighn side of things, i would have to agree that there are some terrible desighners out there- exactly the same way in which there are some terrible scaffolders, but with the shortage of them and the extra requirements TG20 have brought into the industry its hardly surprising that the some drawings are rushed and poor ( but you try expalining to your contractor "sorry mate but cant do it for a month cos the drawing wont be ready" and he has to stand down the whole site and trades just cos of it...)
lets hope that the reissue of TG20:13 will hold a re-write to a lot of the desighn issues , as i cant see the NASC holding itself up against the main contractors that they are trying to sighn up to their recommendations ,once the main contractors fully begin to understand the finacial implications of lost time and additional works required just to stay complient with their recommendations they will be opting out of the NASC quicker than they sighned up to it.
the guy i work for at the mo has a crackin system, as soon as he's aware a dwg is required he takes a load of photos, which he sends to his desighner aloner with a copy of the main site drawing - he then produces a vary detailed sketch/dwg which also goes - a quick call to the desighner to check that his ideas are correct and the desighner emails a confirmation to commence while he may take a few days to prouce the drawing proper, any probs we may get during the erecting can be corrected b4 the main drwg arrives or with a small amendment - as a A ticket he can sighn it off saves loads of time and trouble, and i got to admit that his drwg/sketech looks exactly like the desighners but with out all the tech loading details that the other guys dont really need to know

aom
5th May 2012, 07:54 PM
Agreed Hotspanner, and I may now have changed my opinion slightly now that I have found a good designer that can produce reasonably priced clear designs within a good time scale. (Thanks for the tip BMB) Still couldn't work out Philiosmaximus's drawing though if my life depended on it.:embarrest:


I would now agree that the secret to success is find a guy who can produce a drawing you can understand and give him as much information as you can but the crucial thing is when you are asked to build a complex structure make sure the client knows a drawing must be produced and the boy's just turning up in the morning is never going to happen.

philliosmaximus
5th May 2012, 08:09 PM
20 years ago you would have been hard pushed to find a Street scaffolder who was fully
au-fait with drawings , not their fault as most jumped in a lorry threw up the job and went on the p iss . So the problem has really only come about since SG20 , all scaffolds must be designed has come about. I never was taught to read drawings at the CITB , i was taught by the older scaffolders on the very rare occasion we had drawing to work to.
If they expect the lads to be able to understand drawings then they need to cover it on the courses in detail and get some sort of a standard the the designers need to work to , i have seen drawings that Stephen Hawkings could not make head nor tail of , and instead of just throwing gear in to get around problems they should actually get some scaffolding experience under their belt .

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------


Agreed Hotspanner, and I may now have changed my opinion slightly now that I have found a good designer that can produce reasonably priced clear designs within a good time scale. (Thanks for the tip BMB) Still couldn't work out Philiosmaximus's drawing though if my life depended on it.:embarrest:


I would now agree that the secret to success is find a guy who can produce a drawing you can understand and give him as much information as you can but the crucial thing is when you are asked to build a complex structure make sure the client knows a drawing must be produced and the boy's just turning up in the morning is never going to happen.

:laugh::laugh:: The Guy that does my drawings was actually the owner of a fairly big scaffold company and i always tell him how i see the job and he makes it work from there , so i do have an unfair advantage as i more or less designed it and he calculated it and made it work . But he does have doctors writing and a face that only a mother could love

aom
5th May 2012, 10:04 PM
haha, don't they all.;)

Alan Reade
6th May 2012, 02:06 AM
In the early 70’s -80’s SGB used to run in-house courses for senior Scaffolders and teach them to read drawings. They also used to train Designers/Engineers I am sure Palmers did the same thing.
I remember as a trainee Designer knocking up and printing stacks of drawings that were used both in-house and at Bircham Newton where Scaffolders were trained. GB also ran courses for their Managers and Estimators to ensure they also knew how to read a drawing and understood what the scaff needed to do.
As an Engineer at SGB I used to butt heads with the MD of the day David Flood who referred to us as “the necessary evil”. Little did he know how necessary (or how evil).
Without wishing to and as a result of their training regime SGB became a training service to all the other scaffold companies both with its Engineers, Managers Estimators and its Scaffolders. No sooner were people trained they left to chase the shilling. As a result of this trend SGB stopped it’s training of Engineers and consequently the adequate training of everyone else.

aom
6th May 2012, 02:22 PM
I can understand their problem Alan and the same could be said for many trades I would imagine, I see it here but what's the answer, pay them the shilling they seek I suppose? Without wishing to deviate too much from the point of the thread, I train the young boy's from scratch to up there with the best of them and many large concerns would be lucky to have them but as they dwindle I have to start again. Not an easy task when you consider the investment I make in each one of them. To stop training them is no solution at all. During the 70's and 80's GB were a major player and if they continued in the same vein they might still have been today. As usual, more questions than answers but as Dico always say's beats watching Eastenders.