PDA

View Full Version : Starting out alone help with pricing guide



gm2829
9th June 2010, 10:38 AM
Hi I was hoping that you may be able to help me??
We are looking to branch out alone, slowly but surely. My partner (his the scaff) one of the luckier ones does have the stability of work and will branch out around this, not wanting to take the full leap without being 100%. Myself I have unfortunatly fell off the employment ladder and hates the dole office!

We have been looking for some info regarding pricing, i can research most things in business but this seems to be the hardest! My fella is great at his job, excellent health n saftey, hates all the cowboys you lot chat about etc but is not great with the figures side of it!

from what I can gather most seem to be saying £10 -15 p/m2 is this correct and is this for a boarded lift?
When pricing, should I now with the currently market, quote the whole job for a period of time inc striking, and add a clause for any extra time that may be added?

also can someone tell me if im right in thinking a standard 2 bed house is said to be generally 4m x 5m would this be 4m wide by 2 lifts high?

therefore 4 x 5 m = 20 meters at £15 ? also does this inc. the top hand rail?

half price to strike? and what percentage for the weeks its left there etc

Any help would be appricaited as i really wanna get this going but its hard to get all the info together what with him working full time!

by the way we're in mid kent, and after reading other threads about "taking the plunge" were not planning on stepping on anyones toes, no under cutting monkeys here, just good workers, solid health n safety and only want to do it if everything adds up after the business plans are complete.

Thanks Gem

scaffy dooooo
9th June 2010, 12:11 PM
i think you on are too a good thing try going too princes trust with a business plan they pay for business's too get started ie wagons scaffolding yard insurance cards drivin lessons tests logo printing im in barming (kent) and looking for a start with a firm soo if it a go's well for you rember me if you need a lab

superscaff75
9th June 2010, 02:40 PM
gm2829 there is the market price and there is your price , a new start up company will need to and can undercut established companys due to the lesser overheads, the bottom line is you need to work out your costs then price your works accordingly.

detailed quotations, plus hire rate, plus rates for extra works , transport etc etc

there is a good book called Contract scaffolding estimating strategy by robert bartlett

aom
9th June 2010, 06:04 PM
Hi GM,

I would say you have pretty much got the sums right you just have to get out there and price a couple of jobs and see if you can win them or not, you will find your right place very quickly. It's very hard to give you specifics as every one is looking for a deal at the moment so prices are tumbling.

Good luck with your new venture.

Orac
9th June 2010, 07:17 PM
some good advice there for original poster & anyone else thinking of starting out ;)

numbnuts
9th June 2010, 07:48 PM
i did it once ,in 1991.just jumped straight in feet first.only way to go,then you find out how good you are,pricing ,well thats up to you individually,how much do you want to get at the end of the week,how many builder type people do you know well enough to get work off,they all play you against each other,when they find out you have set up.a tip for you,dont bother with adverts in yellow pages and the likes,waste of money,at a silly cost.word of mouth is best,and as for pricing,all jobs get one fully boarded lift,handrail,as standard,extra boards cost 10p per foot per board,plus extra for handrail.all same rate for footage/metreage up to five lifts,after that its quarter again,after eight lifts its half as much again,(because its slower going getting gear up)hope it helps you out,and good luck.
ps,my firm was turning over six figure money for five years,my partner wanted out ,and i didnt have money to buy them out,so we just sold everything off.

regfenster
11th June 2010, 05:04 PM
Hi I was hoping that you may be able to help me??
We are looking to branch out alone, slowly but surely. My partner (his the scaff) one of the luckier ones does have the stability of work and will branch out around this, not wanting to take the full leap without being 100%. Myself I have unfortunatly fell off the employment ladder and hates the dole office!

We have been looking for some info regarding pricing, i can research most things in business but this seems to be the hardest! My fella is great at his job, excellent health n saftey, hates all the cowboys you lot chat about etc but is not great with the figures side of it!

from what I can gather most seem to be saying £10 -15 p/m2 is this correct and is this for a boarded lift?
When pricing, should I now with the currently market, quote the whole job for a period of time inc striking, and add a clause for any extra time that may be added?

also can someone tell me if im right in thinking a standard 2 bed house is said to be generally 4m x 5m would this be 4m wide by 2 lifts high?

therefore 4 x 5 m = 20 meters at £15 ? also does this inc. the top hand rail?

half price to strike? and what percentage for the weeks its left there etc

Any help would be appricaited as i really wanna get this going but its hard to get all the info together what with him working full time!

by the way we're in mid kent, and after reading other threads about "taking the plunge" were not planning on stepping on anyones toes, no under cutting monkeys here, just good workers, solid health n safety and only want to do it if everything adds up after the business plans are complete.

Thanks Gem

Hopefully this will help. All pricing to include materials too and from site. make costing allowances for travel, for example if you have a job that is a 1hrs plus drive factor in wages and fuel.

your tendered price should be for a minimum of 4 weeks/12weeks for new build with a rental charge of approx 7% pw thereafter. Remember all quotes are + VAT (17.5%) except new builds which are VAT free.

I cannot indulge footage rates, however you best bet is to get a few quotes from your local scaffolding contractors, say to erect a roofing scaffold to your own home then divide the footage by the quote to give you some idea of the going rate for that type of job, the same technique can be applied to chimney stacks, single story properties etc, this will allow you to build a accurate picture of where you need to be within your area to be competitive.

As a general rule of thumb, once you've created a basic costing system, you'll probably come unstuck when quoting work over 35ft high, the easiest way around this is to estimate the time to erect + 15% to allow for overrun multiplied by your hourly rate, factor in your overheads and say a 10% margin
or more dependant on how keen you are to win the work.

E.g Your pricing a run of straight independant scaffold with one working platform 200 ft long by 42ft high(6 lifts) you estimate 5 days for 3 experienced scaffolders, so your initial cost is wages, so hourly rate for 3 men for 5 days + 15%, then consider your overhead, then + your margin, remember this price to include materials too and from site for a period of 4 weeks.

Sometime you'll come along a job that you simply will not want to do so just price yourself out, remember that other local firms may do the same, so be prepared that you have the capacity and skillset just in case you are the winning tender, I recently tried to price myself out of a chimney stack that was 80ft high and buttressed all the way up with the last 5 lifts consisting of rings to all 4 elevations. I knew other local companies were pricing but I came in the cheapest and won the contract, hey the margin in this case was 70% so it was a good earner.

superscaff75
11th June 2010, 05:35 PM
regfenster is about as close as you gonna get on a forum to a detailed explanation of how stuff works, you will soon get the hang of it especially if you drop a couple of ******** lol

the only thing regfenster says that i dont agree with 100% is pricing yourself out of jobs you dont want, sometimes with certain clients or jobs its the best way yes, but i much prefer to be honest with them , i generally say summit like thanks for the enquiry its much appreciated but im afraid we are just too busy at present to do you or ourselves justice on this project, i couldnt guarentee you the service needed for the project or man power, or possibly say you just havnt got the kit needed to complete the project,

just make sure you thank them, ask them to consider you for future works and if they stuck possibly recomend some local firms you are friendly with, they will appreciate your honesty, dont be afraid to tell people if a job is too big or complex either just tell them what is your maximum an minimum size projects they will then know when to get you involved with other projects, if you not honest and drop them in the **** with bad service you will be removed from their tender list

regfenster
11th June 2010, 06:05 PM
regfenster is about as close as you gonna get on a forum to a detailed explanation of how stuff works, you will soon get the hang of it especially if you drop a couple of ******** lol

the only thing regfenster says that i dont agree with 100% is pricing yourself out of jobs you dont want, sometimes with certain clients or jobs its the best way yes, but i much prefer to be honest with them , i generally say summit like thanks for the enquiry its much appreciated but im afraid we are just too busy at present to do you or ourselves justice on this project, i couldnt guarentee you the service needed for the project or man power, or possibly say you just havnt got the kit needed to complete the project,

just make sure you thank them, ask them to consider you for future works and if they stuck possibly recomend some local firms you are friendly with, they will appreciate your honesty, dont be afraid to tell people if a job is too big or complex either just tell them what is your maximum an minimum size projects they will then know when to get you involved with other projects, if you not honest and drop them in the **** with bad service you will be removed from their tender list

You made some good valid points there. One thing I will say from business perspective is watch your cashflow, there are many examples of decent small scaffolding contractors going under when they've estimated and won large contracts only to not be paid, this is a killer when your a small new company.

One thing I will mention is insurance, both employer and public liability, alot of SME construction companies look for this along with the usual risk/method/HS assesments, it could protect you and your employee's in difficult circumstances that may or may not be your fault in the future

Having re-read your reply one thing I'd never suggest is recommending other contractors to work that your tendering for, business is about making money and one rule that I've learn't the hard way is that you do not have freinds when your in business, a potential recommendation may mean that you could lose that client forever.

aom
11th June 2010, 07:50 PM
Regfenster,

Good advice there, but I'm not sure you are entirely right about new builds being vat free. My advice from the vat man is now a few years old so it might be me that is out of date but basically he still want's his cut from the scaffs. The advice we got was that whilst all the labour on a new build is vat free the material is vatable because it is not part of the fabric of the building, basicly anything that is removed from site at the end of the build is vatable, that's why when you hire plant on a new build site you still have vat on the invoice. Also, you might be giving your customer 4 weeks free hire but the vat man isn't and an allowance must be made for the vat content in this as well. We currently split the invoice on all new builds to show labour at about two thirds free of vat and material plus vat. As I say, this advice is a few years old and could have changed but for the avoidance of doubt charge plenty vat and let the customer fight the vat man.

HatterScaff
12th June 2010, 06:18 AM
Regfenster,

Good advice there, but I'm not sure you are entirely right about new builds being vat free. My advice from the vat man is now a few years old so it might be me that is out of date but basically he still want's his cut from the scaffs. The advice we got was that whilst all the labour on a new build is vat free the material is vatable because it is not part of the fabric of the building, basicly anything that is removed from site at the end of the build is vatable, that's why when you hire plant on a new build site you still have vat on the invoice. Also, you might be giving your customer 4 weeks free hire but the vat man isn't and an allowance must be made for the vat content in this as well. We currently split the invoice on all new builds to show labour at about two thirds free of vat and material plus vat. As I say, this advice is a few years old and could have changed but for the avoidance of doubt charge plenty vat and let the customer fight the vat man.

Yes the VAT is a particular problem, we have been told that labour only contracts are zero rated for VAT, but if you supply the materials as well' you have to charge VAT on everything Labour and Materials, it is then down to the client to recover the VAT paid through their accounts, unless they have an exemption certificate, but these are only usually given to charitites etc.
:wondering:

scottishscaff
20th July 2010, 08:34 AM
GM2829.

A good way to price works when you eventualy get up and running and get some jobs under your belt is the m3/m2 method.

m3 is the total length x width x height of the scaffolding structure.
m2 is the legnth x width x#boarded lifts on the scaffolding.

If you set up a database which captures your productivity norms for the m3/m2 for all types of differing scaffolds you may erect/dismantle then you can use your average norms to work out your manhours and x that by your manpower costs and transport/hire/overheads to help you build up your final price.

The data base relies on you getting accurate productivity information back from your worksites and takes time to upkeep but in the long run it should be a good source of information to help you price jobs.
One of my subcontractors in Singapore used this method and their profit margins were very good and their accurate manhour estimates were very usefull for me when we put their manhours into the overall construction plan on site.
Maybe early days for you but some of the more established companies could maybe consider it??

Sammyscaff
31st October 2011, 07:11 PM
for a pair top lift decked out in layher how much should it be 50ftx50ft 2 lifts a builder tried telling me he was gettin this done for £600 not by cowboy either

aom
31st October 2011, 08:01 PM
Depends on expenses but I would say £600 must be nearly cost price, even if it's easy access close to the yard it would be tough to squeeze out a bit of profit in that. Call his bluff and tell him to ram it, see what happens. Obviously you have to be prepared to loose it but at that price it's worth the risk.

jakdan
31st October 2011, 08:55 PM
for a pair top lift decked out in layher how much should it be 50ftx50ft 2 lifts a builder tried telling me he was gettin this done for £600 not by cowboy either

thats beer money only sammy, tell him to ram it

scaffy
31st October 2011, 09:00 PM
As boys say thats to cheap mate

Binthere
1st November 2011, 11:07 AM
I read back over this item and noticed the reference to the application of VAT on contract scaffolding made first by AOM and then by Hatterscaff. After having several meetings with HMRC I re-read the VAT rulebook and then composed this letter in 2008. I have used it ever since as it is a true reflection of the rules and has recovered many thousands of pounds from clients that tried to 'evade' payment. (I hope this displays ok)
Please feel free to use this letter whenever the need arises.

Dear Sir's
RE: VALUE ADDED TAX.

Following a recent audit of our accounts by HMRC it was brought to our attention that Contract Scaffolding is always standard rated. We note from our records that we have not received VAT on the value of your payments received to date.

We must remind you that the supply of Contract Scaffolding is always fully standard-rated at 20%. All as described in HMRC Notice 708. (July 2002) Section 11. Paragraph 2. which states:-

“If your work is zero-rated or reduced-rated, then so are the goods, But you must always standard-rate goods that are not ‘building materials’.”

As contract scaffolding will not form part of the finished structure it is not classed by HMRC as building materials (Section 13. Paragraphs 1-8), thus it always have and will attract the full rate of tax.

Please find attached an invoice for VAT only on the value of payments received to date and now overdue for settlement with HMRC.

Should you require any further Information on this letter please contact your local HMRC Office.



Yours Faithfully

general manager
4th November 2011, 02:56 PM
for a pair top lift decked out in layher how much should it be 50ftx50ft 2 lifts a builder tried telling me he was gettin this done for £600 not by cowboy either

No way can you make any profit on this

bigrab
7th November 2011, 07:53 AM
hi people am just in the process of starting up my own buisness and was wondering if any one can give me some info on how much it is per meter or so on pm me please cheers.

Dandaps
8th November 2011, 03:28 PM
depends who you pricing against and who its for. house holder, dodgy builder, reputable building company etc,

new school
22nd November 2011, 07:49 PM
some good info hear tar

aom
22nd November 2011, 08:05 PM
Your more than welcome and welcome to the forum New School.

general manager
23rd November 2011, 08:02 AM
some good info hear tar

Welcome new school

Binthere
23rd November 2011, 09:32 AM
Hi ya New school. Feel free to contribute as well as learn from this site. We all find out somthing new each day.

marra watson
25th January 2012, 06:34 PM
for a pair top lift decked out in layher how much should it be 50ftx50ft 2 lifts a builder tried telling me he was gettin this done for £600 not by cowboy either

were u from that sound slik my gaffer putting that price in 10x 10ft bays two lifts 2/3hours work 4 at the most

southernpoofter
25th January 2012, 07:21 PM
hey al i ope not mate cos we've never charged vat on new build,& on a recent audit from hmrc they never picked it up as wrong,the buiders excemption certificate that they are issued and should show u states that, i see your point but grey area as who is to say how much of the contract is labour and how much materials? all your doing is making loads of paperwork for yourself and being an unpaid collector of taxes :-))

ryanmac
13th December 2013, 05:46 AM
Does anyone know how to price cuplock towers? Need help here thanks just starting off?

aom
13th December 2013, 01:42 PM
How high you going Ryan and are you supplying the gear?

jagster180
18th February 2014, 08:59 AM
if you supply materials to a site even hire you must charge vat, unless you do a split rate , its not worth the hassle, charge vat on every thing and you cant go wrong.

irvscaff
24th August 2014, 06:41 PM
im starting up on my own and have bben in the game nearky 8 years fixing for 6.... i have a good idea on pricing just the only thing im struggling on pricing is beam work and lids.... any help would be appreciated....

aom
25th August 2014, 06:32 PM
Beam work would just be simply how you viewed it. I know some that just price it as if it was a solid square metreage and others either add or subtract as they see fit depending on how much they want the job. Lids are much the same only add plenty for drawings and kentledge. Don't underestimate roofs, easy to get them wrong.

supper
25th May 2015, 05:15 PM
Also remember anyone starting up in or around london most firms starting prices are £400 for the smallest of jobs,i mean ive heard of people doing jobs for 190 like wtf really

---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 PM ----------

I know your starting off and all want to get your name out there etc but always remember once you do it cheap once to get in there the roofer builder etc expect it all the time dont make a mug of the game out there lads theres plenty of work going around at the moment.

southernpoofter
18th September 2016, 07:40 PM
Oi ScaffoldTM stop hijacking everyones thread with a blatant sales pitch for your own book....ffs make ur own thread & if people want to read it & buy ur book then g8 if not do what everyone one else does who offers a service -PAY FOR YOUR OWN ADVERT- rather than use this as a free medium

oggy
18th September 2016, 08:14 PM
Learn by your mistakes No better way and I won't b up twice lol

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

R.B
21st September 2016, 07:48 PM
for a pair top lift decked out in layher how much should it be 50ftx50ft 2 lifts a builder tried telling me he was gettin this done for £600 not by cowboy either

Do I understand correctly that the scaffold is about 15 meters long and 15 meters high? And only two floors fully planked to be used of the contractor?

I dont really understand the lingo you guys in England about scaffold :)

philliosmaximus
22nd September 2016, 08:41 AM
Do I understand correctly that the scaffold is about 15 meters long and 15 meters high? And only two floors fully planked to be used of the contractor?

I dont really understand the lingo you guys in England about scaffold :)



Planks :laugh::laugh: