How are the big nationals paying their way? (1 Viewer)

moanalot

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With all this new working at height regs and health & safety crap that is doing its best to stop us actually erecting any scaffold legally,How then with the rates being as they are on the street at the moment are the big boys paying their way?
I only ask because our rates are crap and we are still losing out to the likes of SGB and palmers on price.Am I missing the obvious??

Im'e not saying its right but if we did everything by the book on site we wouldn't last five minutes,Not on these rates...
 
The Blue Chip Service Companies are intigrated with the Princilpal Contractors, the Old School tie and Cartel Culture contrives to award Contracts to within it's Community---The mid-range and Family run Scaffolding Firms get the residue...

It is well know that there is a pecking order---If your names not on the list, you cant get in :eek:
 
Moanalot,

I was considering that same point myself today. During negotiation for the smallest job I couldn't believe how much discount the customer was expecting only to go back to the office to see a snotty letter from h&s executive warning of sanctions if during site visit he finds no drawings and calculations for jobs that I would call basic but he wouldn't.

There is only one way the price of scaffolding is going to go and that is up which is tough as everyone is expecting to pay less as demand is down. The smaller jobs used to be our bread and butter and put us where we are today but we are reguarly getting pushed out by dodgy builders (infact every man and his dug has a puckle of system) who are now acting contracting scaffolding firms.

We now have to make sure we get all the bigger jobs where a bona fide is a requirement and while I know we are in no way perfect, try and implement as many tg20 requirements as we can. This is paying off on a few of our sites at the moment especially when there seems to be more safety men than operatives but it really gets my goat when I see some of the bags of knitting erected for a fraction of what it would cost us.

Maybe I should get a few pics on here of a couple of jobs and give you all a good laugh.
 
Interesting topic!

i was thinking this the other day, it makes you wonder with most companies having to reduce their rates!

i can understand what a previous comment has said with regards to the pecking order.

But saying that in the northwest, there have been closing of branches or relocating of works to other branches, for the larger companies.

Are the likes of SGB gaining there income from sites abroad? I know they are busy as my brother works for them in Qatar.
 
aom

If I were still Operating a Scaffolding Firm---I would have NO hesitation in Reporting Non-Compliant Scaffolding Structures within my Patch to my Local HSE, with a follow up contact to see what remedial and corrective action was taken---these cut price Cowboy Outfits work outwith peramiters of Fair Trading and the Statutory Laws and associated Regs, TG's ect, therfore let the Authorities Regulate them---Dont turn a blind eye when you see an unsafe Scaffold you would mearly be condoning it.

It is very much against the nature of a Scaffolder to grass---but, feck it the gloves are off Guys---the HSE Inspectors are payed a pritty tidy sum, lets see them earn their corn as we have too.

Garry...
 
Garry,

Good response, ive unfortunately had to be in contact with the HSE about such matters. There response was that there personnel are tied up with other commitments, in my opinion, the HSE only want to hear from you if theres been an accident or similar occurences.

It is only my opinion from previouse experiences.
 
Swinny46

During ragscaffs recent initial meeting with the HSE in Leeds 26/5/10 where many issues were raised ( ragscaffs report is in the Social Groups Section ) the lack of Man Power was cited by the HSE for the lack of Monitoring, Marshalling and Regulating their remit---I would therefore, offer up for discussion whither the HSE are fit for purpose ???---there is no excuse for the dilution of Policing of our Industry---Scaffolding is a High Risk Industry and should be Regulated as such---Self Regulation is NOT working SO where do we go from here---persist and pester the HSE at every opportunity, if they do not act, go to your MP and ask questions, I know its a piss off draging yourself to MP's, but thats what he/she gets payed for---HSE Deputy Scaffolding Inspectors could and should be recruited from within our Industry as part of a Joint Venture ???.
 
Gary,

I agree with what you say but as with swinny 46 I got the same answer from h&s exec. Not enough resources to cover all uk. When I filled in ragscaffs questionaire I said I wanted more visits from executive to our corner of the world for the reasons already quoted and even to try and educate some of my own existing customers who can ask for the daftest things, how many times have I got to tell them that I have to put in the internal handrail, it doesn't matter that they might have to remove it in 4 weeks time. To be fair to the guy covering this area he said he would try and respond to any occurence I bring to his attention but as you already said it does go against the grain and I feel I have enough on my plate trying to keep ourselves on the right side of the law. The thing with bona fida scaffold contractors is we are a big easy target for a quick hit when you have to dig (but not too far) to uncover the cowboy. You have no idea the jobs this guy drove buy with the blinkers on to get to mine and nothing said, it was very dissapointing.

That being said, the mp route might well be a good place to start, the danger I suppose would be if any more pressure was put on the exec with regard to targets he would simply hit the scaffold company harder rather than taking the time to dig that wee bit deeper to get the full picture.

---------- Post added at 05:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

Also, liked the idea of deputy inspectors from within, probably too sensible for a public body to think of that one.
 
aom

Good Post, and took on board your idea to educate the CLIENT in the regime restrictions and requirements that proffecional Scaffolding Firms work under.

It is very dissapointing to reolise that in most part it is only lip service that HSE Inspectors can offer---perhaps they do the Job as well they can, however, this must not retract from deleriction of Duty of Care to Operatives and the General Public---we are expected to ensure that we have sufficiant resourses to comply with Statutory requirements---however, the DHS do not seem to be give sufficant resources to do thier Job. The simple truth is that there is insufficiant Inspectors with insufficant powers---Worker incusion would be a step forward, Deputy Inspectors who had dual roles ie, Working in the Industry and haveing limited Statutory Powers to act a Deputy Inspectors ???.

Garry...
 
I definately believe they do their job as best they can with what they have, but an excellent point with regard we are legally bound to have enough resources to fulfill our obligation so why not them. I think we would have their full support with any attempt at lobbying our MP to increase their remit. I also agree with the point regarding deputy inspectors and could be used to alleviate the problem in the short term at least. I know Ragscaff is up to his neck in it at the moment but could be worth a mention in dispatches at the next meeting.
 
aom

Certainly worth a wee mention---given that these are Criminal offences punishable with Punative and custodial sentinces---

I wonder what would happen if one were to report a Scaffold and NO action was taken and God forbid it Collapsed---who would be held liable ?---
The Scaffold Company for no-comliance or the HSE for negligance of Duty of Care ??? all very grey areas mi Lud :embarrest:
 
Im agreeing with you all on here, something needs to be done about seeing these cowboy firms! Im gonna have to start taking pictures of the jobs they put up, some of them are absolutely ridiculous, they are a total disregard to anyones safety....
 
Swinny46

With the modern day technoligies like digital cameras---a visual record can be obtained and a Data Base compiled and then submitted to the District HSE---perhaps they would then be duty bound to act...

Garry...
 
Guys

At my last H&S meeting, March 2010, i was informed by the 'Group H&S Manager', that the HSE, had taken on a further 200 Inspectors.

These 200 Inspectors,were specific to the Construction sector, and were on a 2 year contract.

One of these Inspectors, visited 1 of our major contracts in Scotland, where he was on site for over 4 hours.

There was no I notices or P notices issued, however he had some recommendations, which he relayed by letter to the CEO. As you can imagine the CEO doesnt like correspondence from the HSE.

So i suppose that is one way to make sure the Blue chip companies dont get too complacent.

Good thread guys.

Paddy
 
Garry

I expect them to have a duty to act, im sure they drive past these types of jobs every single day!!! im not accusing them of turning a blind eye, but surely the smaller type of scaffoldng companies that are in circultion and turning out these types of works are ruining it?!

Im not trying at all that the HSE are not doing the job, but do you not think that getting to the larger companies with bigger scalps puts them in good stead?

I thing there should some part of this forum for us, as members, to upload photos of their shoddy work, im not talking about grassing these companies up put highlighting what their doing.

The HSE along with the NASC have brought these regulations and legislations into place but it isnt across the board....

Rant over!

phew...
 
Quote from Gary,s Post

"During ragscaffs recent initial meeting with the HSE in Leeds 26/5/10 where many issues were raised ( ragscaffs report is in the Social Groups Section ) the lack of Man Power was cited by the HSE for the lack of Monitoring, Marshalling and Regulating their remit"

Wonder if that would work as an excuse with the HSE when they are intending serving P or I notices or a prosecution, I think not

I meet with quite a few HSE inspectors in my day to day activities and I believe they like to visit the well run sites as they can do an inspection tick most of the boxes make a few "suggestions" have a bacon buttie with site manager do thier report and move on.I have also observed that a lot of the younger inspectors get tied up in the detail and miss the big picture

As to getting rid of the cowboy element from the scaff industry I had high hopes of the NASC when it was first formed, to tackle this issue, but alas I am disapointed with thier record thus far

Give me a few inspectors and a web site for the industry to report bad practice in scaffold construction and cowboy outfits Name and shame the idiots who give our industry a bad reputation.Concentrate our efforts on prosecuting the main contractors,bob the builders and anybody who employs the cowboys scaffolders make the fines very large so the message goes out that if employ incompetent people to erect your scaffolds You will be prosecuted and the fines will be very large
 
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Rigger

Ye, A website to name and shame---your thoughts Swinny ???---why not use Modern Technoligies.

Post the incriminating Job so as we can all see it ,then each individual Post their Observations and Views---and offcource our Remedial and Corrective Actions Required to Stop Recurrance...

Perhaps SF Admin could open a new Section for this Purpose ???

Garry...
 
I certainly think it could be a good idea. I already have one in mind and if any one can beat it I'll "show ma ar*e in Burtons window." It's a private but how it's still standing I'll never know and it's one the inspector drove buy to get to mine. If there is no new section by tomorrow I will put it on here, make sure to check it out.
 
I'll check it out aom---if no it's a big hairy ar£e in Burtons Window on Saturday afternoon :eek:

WWWwwwooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh :cool:
 
Gary,

LOL Wouldn't make a pretty sight so I had better get it. Feel a bit of a pr**k standing opposite a job like Eathan Hawk talking in to my collar pretending to be taking photos of birds.
 
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